Standmounts $2K, $4K, $6K: Home Audition WaveTouch, Salk Silk, B&W CM5, Totem Element Fire

[charmerci]

There's a Best Buy with a Magnolia showroom no more than a mile away from my house. I've stopped in about 5 times over the last 3 years and 4 out of the 5 times the sales people have been morons. Combine that with the equipment (AVR's & amps to speakers) being incorrectly connected/labeled, add a minimum wage sales person and you have the perfect $hit storm of incompetence. What's the frequency response for these B&W's bookshelf's? BLANK STARE & MUTE. How much power is going to the LR fronts from this Denon AVR? BLANK STARE & MUTE. And on & on. The cherry on the top is the Magnolia manager who I've dealt with the last 2 times in the past 5 months. An arrogant little meatball of mediocrity. The first time he intervenes and fails to get the speakers to demo, he claims the showroom is not ready for prime time, because "there still working out the bugs". The showroom has been operational for the last 3 years. The next time I go down and deal with a new sales person, it's a much different response. He must've drank about 4 cups of coffee before I got there. I give him my reference CD to listen to some Martin-Logan floor-standers. He's running around like a madman, pushing buttons all over the place and nothing. Looks at me with this wild-eyed stare and claims the CD player is on the fritz. He whips out his Android and attempts miserably to connect to 4 different AVR's, with the same result; failure. And who should come to his rescue; yep, meatball boy. With the same result. Again he starts to claim that "there still working out the bugs", when a note of recognition descends upon him ... crap, this is the guy who was in here a couple of months ago ... and with a straight face and a look of derision he says to me, obviously you must know what these speakers sound like and this is how much were selling them for, and walks away. I don't know whether to laugh or grab one of those small Bose cube speakers nearby and hit him in the back of his head. How much sales they're generating monthly out of this Magnolia showroom is unknown to me but too all appearances, it can't be much. I noticed maybe 1 or 2 other customers in there, besides myself, and they all seem to have the same look of frustration as myself as they leave. What incompetence!

While I am certainly sorry to hear about this experience - and that it exists - it certainly gave me a good laugh.

 

[jbltmp]

Totem Element Fire: "Could I Have It All?"

In closing my review of the Salk Sound Silk I stated…“However, the perfectionist in me kept thinking, wow, if you had the bass and smoothness of the Salk Silks combined with the energy and articulation of the WaveTouch Mt. Rainiers, then you’d really have something.”

I think the Totem “Fire” is something that approaches that something, and listening to Adele through them made me think…, well, maybe I could have it all.

The Fire is the larger of two standmounts in Totem’s top of the line Element series. It is a two-way design with a one inch metal dome tweeter and a seven inch “Torrent” polypropylene mid/woofer. The fit and finish is about average for this price speaker ($6,000/pair). I’ve seen better in this price range, such as the Monitor Audio PL100 ($5,000/pair) for example, which uses eleven coats of lacquer! I’d rather not be paying for that level of finish (the law of diminishing returns has to kick in at about coat number seven). Judging by the sound of the PL100, I would like to have seen some of the money used in cosmetics applied to taming the high end produced by the proprietary ribbon tweeter (rated at up to 100kHz – for dolphins and whales I guess).

But back to the Fire. The Element series, of which the Fire is a member, features a unique, “crossoverless” driver design, the best description of which I’ve found is in a review of the Totem Element “Metal”:

Totem Elements Metal Floorstanding Speakers A great speaker for large scale music… and music in particular. Review By Phil Gold

An excerpt from that review states: “The real innovations are not obvious from the outside. Designer Vince Bruzzese has developed a directly connected midrange/woofer system which means no intervening capacitors, inductors or resistors. The tweeter still needs a simple crossover network to match its level and response curve to the characteristics of the midrange/woofer system, which maintains a smooth and distortion free significant output level up to around 5 kHz before smoothly rolling off.”

I don’t know any more about the technology than what I’ve read in that review, or what specific sonic improvements it produces, but judging from the sound of the speaker something is working really well. First off, the bass was clearly the best I’ve heard amongst all the standmount speakers I auditioned, in dealer showrooms or at home, including the $8-9K Dynaudio Confidence 1. It was deep, tight, powerful and seamlessly integrated. I was most impressed with the latter given the crossoverless design and thinking that integration between the mid/woofer and tweeter may be the hardest thing to get right.

Vocals, both male and female, were the most natural and uncolored I’ve heard, and instruments had a distinctness that was just not present in other speakers. I’m not talking about resolution, but more about accuracy and uniqueness of timbre. I would also characterize the speaker as analytical, although not cold. I expect these speakers would be very unforgiving of mediocre recordings, and very interdependent on the electronics used to drive it.

One thing I liked a lot about the Fire is that it had an energy to it. It was extremely fast-paced, clean and dynamic. This was much different from the Salk Silk, for example, which had a much smoother overall presentation.

Probably the best thing I could say about the Totems is that after listening to them for a while I put away my notes and just listened to the music.

I had the Fire for the shortest period of time of all the speakers I home auditioned, picking them up at closing one night and having to return them the next morning, so it was a late night of listening as much as I could to as great a variety of music I could. This was particularly concerning to me because in one of my auditions of the Totem in a dealer showroom it sounded somewhat forward to me, much more so than at the first dealer at which I heard them. The first dealer ran them through McIntosh amplification, and the second through Bryston, so that may account for some of the difference. But anyway, because of hearing that forwardness at the second dealer I came into the home audition of the Totems concerned about listener fatigue, avoidance of which is a top priority for me in selecting a speaker. In just one, albeit long night running them through a Musical Fidelity integrated amp, I felt I just didn’t have enough time with the Totems to say definitively that listener fatigue will not be an issue, at least not to the extent I could say with the Salk Silk. With the Silks I could tell “right out of the box” that listener fatigue would not be a factor at all. With the Totems I did not come away with that level of confidence.

I might add that I consider one of the many benefits of home auditioning, specifically a dealer’s demo speaker, to be that you’re listening to a speaker that’s already “broken-in”. So you know that it’s as good as it gets for a particular speaker when it comes to a factor such as listener fatigue.

So, what can you say about a $6,000 pair of standmount speakers versus others in the mix? My take, which so often reverberates in this and many other threads on these forums, is “to each his own.” The Silks were the epitome of neutral and smooth, The WaveTouch transparent as no other, the Totems all about accuracy, crispness and speed, the B&W kind of a lot of stuff jumbled together but overall a pleasing sound. Me, I’ll opt for the accuracy and crispness, which is why I started this hunt in the first place.

I hope this doesn’t sound like a commercial for Totem, because it’s not my intent. Nor has it been an effort to prove to myself that my initial take was right, or that “you get what you pay for”. I certainly didn’t want to prefer a $6k speaker and would really have liked to find a lower cost alternative I preferred, and I’m sure many people have…or could. The Fire is not the perfect speaker by any means. It’s very expensive, would not appeal to all tastes, and may not be the best value in the lot. But after the effort I’ve put into this search I’m willing to pay to get the sound I want.

What’s next? I plan to post my thoughts on the search overall. Not on specific speakers, but on the process itself, in hopes it may provide some additional insights from which other forum members can benefit.

Totem Element Series Fire Specifications:
- 1’ tweeter, 7” mid/woofer
- 8 ohms, 88dB SPL
- Frequency response 40-22kHz
- 50-150 watts power rating
- 16.6” h x 8.8” w x 11.7” d, 30 lbs
- $6000/pr in black or white finish

Sorry - no pictures. I just didn't have enough time with the speakers to mess with that!

 

[Ponzio]

You had me till you mentioned Adele.


Good review. Definitely has me rethinking my previous prejudice towards Totem, based on demoing their 2011 models. While I’m not in the market for a high-end bookshelf, I’m more than pleased with my LS50’s; I’m looking forward to a listen at my local B&M shop.

Good luck and enjoy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I might have missed it, but did you ever audition one of the best measured speakers in the world - the KEF Reference 201/2?

MSRP is $6K/ pair, but you could get it brand new for much less than that -- if you like the sound, of course.

 

[jbltmp]

Sorry about the Adele reference, but I thought I'd take the risk.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts about the Totems.

 

[jbltmp]

You mean you don't have the list of speakers I auditioned posted on your refrigerator?

My local KEF dealer did not carry the 201/202, but I did hear the KEF-R300. Pretty impressive at $1799/pr. I thought it was on a par with the McIntosh XR50 at $4k/pair.

 

[cschang]

I am familiar with the KEF 201/2 (had these in my room for a week) and the R300...both excellent!

Although it won't be easy to do right now, I highly suggest you try to get a listen to the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2.

 

[doug s.]

a few comments -

- first of all, nice review jbltmp!
- 2nd, the pics in your first post look like the retail $1k grand teton v2's:

- from wavetouch's website:

(but the retail prices of these speakers have me wondering as the seller is listing the mt ranier at $800, and the birch ply grand teton at $1800 on agon: New Wavetouch Speaker. Mt. Rainier. (MR) - The most accurate speaker in the world! | Monitors | Los Angeles, California 90015 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Wavetouch Audio.. Grand Teton speaker.. The most beautiful sounding speaker in the world! | Monitors | Los Angeles, California 90015 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community )

regarding the salk speakers, i agree they are quite exceptional. however, imo, dennis murphy's own philharmonic audio speakers are exceptionaler, even tho cheaper! at least dennis' top line philharmonic 3 was better than the much more expensive ($8k) salk soundscape 8's, which were playing in the adjacent room at caf's 2013 audio show, w/more expensive gear and a better room, to boot. while i got only a brief listen to the philharmonic bookshelf's, they were wery nice indeed. and if you insist on the raal tweeter, dennis is the man - have him design a small bookshelf w/that tweet; he'll do it!

regarding kef speakers, the ones i'd really love to hear are the ls50's:
Flagship Hi-Fi Speakers - LS50 - Overview - KEF International

these retail $1500 speakers have gotten rave reviews everywhere.

and, re: monitor speakers, (and most all speakers, imo), i am really not interested in bass response below 80hz or so, as i have found that most all speakers, even full-range iterations, benefit from being crossed over to (at least) a pair of hi-quality subs, w/a hi-quality active x-over. the bass gets better, and the main speakers themselves get better, as they no longer have to see the lowest frequencies, thus cleaning up their midbass and higher frequency response. notice how many big dollar speaker systems have separate woofer boxes as part of the system. (perhaps using subs w/the less expensive wavetouch speakers would allow them to exceed the performance of the spendy totem fires, and still cost less?)

doug s.

 

[jbltmp]

Doug S. -
Thanks for the comments and welcome to the Forum.
Good questions and follow-on thoughts.
The first picture I posted is of the prototype Mt. Rainier, although it does look quite a bit like the Grand Teton. The next picture is of the Mt. Rainier production model, which has a completely different cabinet design than the prototype.
I've read a lot of good things about the Philharmonics. It's interesting that the 3's outdid the Soundscapes in your listening experience.
I have heard the KEF LS50's and they sounded great, especially at their price point.
I think the sub/no sub question has a lot to do with Home Theater vs. 2-channel music listening. To me, a sub is really helpful for HT sound effects.
But for music, I prefer a conventional, no-sub system. No matter the quality of the sub, I've never heard one that fully/"seemlessly" integrated with a full range, although I do think that the better the bass on a full range, the better it will integrate with a sub. (no surprise!)
Your idea of pairing the Wavetouch with subs is a very cost effective way to go for high resolution and transparency, with deep bass capability.

 

[doug s.]

Doug S. -
Thanks for the comments and welcome to the Forum.
Good questions and follow-on thoughts.
The first picture I posted is of the prototype Mt. Rainier, although it does look quite a bit like the Grand Teton. The next picture is of the Mt. Rainier production model, which has a completely different cabinet design than the prototype.
I've read a lot of good things about the Philharmonics. It's interesting that the 3's outdid the Soundscapes in your listening experience.
I have heard the KEF LS50's and they sounded great, especially at their price point.
I think the sub/no sub question has a lot to do with Home Theater vs. 2-channel music listening. To me, a sub is really helpful for HT sound effects.
But for music, I prefer a conventional, no-sub system. No matter the quality of the sub, I've never heard one that fully/"seemlessly" integrated with a full range, although I do think that the better the bass on a full range, the better it will integrate with a sub. (no surprise!)
Your idea of pairing the Wavetouch with subs is a very cost effective way to go for high resolution and transparency, with deep bass capability.

i find it interesting that wavetouch lists the mt ranier's at $3k on their website, but is asking $800 on agon. and they list their birch grand tetons at $3.5k and ask $1.8k on agon. something is up w/that...

if you have a quality x-over, and use at least two quality subs, it is easy to get them to blend well w/monitors. even ones that do not go full range. i have successfully crossed even the tiny proac tablette reference 8 signatures to a pair of vmps larger subs w/a marchand 24db/octave x-over, in a 26x38x8.5 listening room. seamless blend, and enough undistorted spl to be louder than you ever need. the key, imo, is not to use powered subs' internal x-overs, and to use at least two subs, preferably stereo. regarding h-t vs audio, i don't even own a tv, so that's not where i am coming from - i am 100% audio only. the only time i ever heard a successful blend of a single mono sub for audio, was when it was in the nearfield, exactly centered between the main speakers.

a few shots of my system a few years ago, to give an idea of how i like to set it up w/subs for audio only:

notice the subs are in the same plane as the mains, and everything is 6' or more from all the walls...

doug s.

ps - how do the ls50's compare to the other speakers you mention?

 

[jbltmp]

Doug S.,
I usually don't trust anyone who doesn't own a TV, but in your case I'll make an exception.

I agree that the pricing on the Audiogon Wavetouch listings seems a bit skewed.

I appreciate seeing pictures of your setup. I can also appreciate how dual subs and a quality external cross-over would help with the integration. I once had that setup myself (with passive subs driven by monoblocks), and a parametric EQ as well.

Either deep bass is not that critical for me anymore, or I've just gotten lazy and want to keep things simple these days.

PS - Although I didn't spend a lot of time with them, the LS50's sounded every bit as good as anything else in their price range, but I thought the KEF R300's at $1800/pr offered significant improvement for the additional $300.

 

[doug s.]

jbltmp,

i queried the agon wavetouch seller about his offerings/pricing; it will be interesting to hear a response. if i get one. for $800, the mt ranier's look interesting indeed.

i can understand the desire to keep it simple. presently i am back to using my marchand x-over instead of my deqx - laziness prevails. but for a serious main system, dual subs will always be a req. hell, even my little kitchen rig, driven by the modded/refurb'd 4wpc amps in my modded refurb'd hk citation 18 tuna, has a pair of subs hidden under the kitchen table!

(those upgraded-component diy dillon ego speakers are also quite the speaker performers, btw... )

i wonder if the reason you preferred the r300's over the ls50's is they had batter bass? obviously not a concern of mine.

doug s.

 

[Steve81]

i wonder if the reason you preferred the r300's over the ls50's is they had batter bass? obviously not a concern of mine.

I'd imagine composure at higher levels would also favor the R300. Even if both have the benefit of a subwoofer to cover 80Hz on down, the relatively small woofer of the LS50 is going to have to deliver a lot of excursion at higher levels, whereas the UniQ in the R300 doesn't and it's 6.5" woofer has the benefit of having significantly more Sd to work with. This also means that at higher levels, the LS50's woofer isn't going to make a very stable waveguide for the tweeter, impacting top end response as well.

 

[jbltmp]

hell, even my little kitchen rig, driven by the modded/refurb'd 4wpc amps in my modded refurb'd hk citation 18 tuna, has a pair of subs hidden under the kitchen table!


.

Wow. Nice setup for a kitchen. I won't even ask what's in your bathroom!


In my opinion, the R300's outdid the LS50's on most every dimension, and compared favorably to some speakers I heard costing $4K/pr.

 

[doug s.]

I'd imagine composure at higher levels would also favor the R300. Even if both have the benefit of a subwoofer to cover 80Hz on down, the relatively small woofer of the LS50 is going to have to deliver a lot of excursion at higher levels, whereas the UniQ in the R300 doesn't and it's 6.5" woofer has the benefit of having significantly more Sd to work with. This also means that at higher levels, the LS50's woofer isn't going to make a very stable waveguide for the tweeter, impacting top end response as well.

hi steve,

re: higher spl's, your point is well taken. but i am not sure how big a deal it really is, at least if the experience w/my proac tablette 8 ref signatures is any indication. these speakers, w/4.5" woofers, are even smaller than the woofers on the ls50's. yet they play cleanly to realistic live spl levels when crossed at 80hz to subs, even in a large room. i used them in the same room/system as shown in my pics, which was 26x38x8.5. maybe the ls50's would prefer an even higher x-over point than 80hz, which would not be an issue w/my system - i have crossed as high as 125hz w/no problems. i actually used that 125hz point on a pair of swans m1.2's, as the swans had an exaggerated low end, and the sound was cleaner w/the subs playing up higher...

doug s.

 

[doug s.]

no tunes in the bathroom.

thanks for the follow-up on the kef's. and, i did get a reply regarding the wavetouch's:

"All wavetouch speaker have very similar sounds since they all have same drivers and same crossover design. They all display big soundstage, vivid/life like sound images, and musical.

Difference is in cabinets and sound tone. Birch GT (grand teton) has 1 inch walls. GT sound pleasant, natural, and beautiful. MR (mount ranier) has 3/4 inch walls with 13 layers rigid plywood. MR sounds little more focused and accurate than GT, but not as beautiful as GT. Only found with direct side by side comparison with GT. I guess that is because of the trapezoid shape and harder plywood walls. MR is still same efficient, musical, and clear images as GT. Just little different tone.

There is no reason to buy MDF cabinets (Cherry $1k, Piano black $2k) at this time. They are old models. MDF sounds mute and dead (just in sound tone) to compare plywood cabinets. They still display huge sound stage and clear images. "

it also seems that the seller is willing to entertain offers, per his agon ad...

doug s.

 

[Steve81]

re: higher spl's, your point is well taken. but i am not sure how big a deal it really is

Hey Doug,

Mostly depends on what levels you're after, as well as things like listening distance and room acoustics. The LS50 wouldn't be the ideal speaker for those looking for theater reference levels in a larger room, even with a 120Hz crossover. Of course, with respect to your Proac comparison, its worth noting that while the LS50's have a nominally larger woofer, the loss of cone area to the tweeter assembly still probably puts them at parity in terms of Sd. Further, there's still the problem that long throws from the LS50's woofer will have a significant measurable impact on the tweeter's response which won't be an issue for the Proacs.

Edit:
PS: Just saw you were at CAF this year; I was cruising around there as well along with a couple other AHers.

 

[jbltmp]

Late Comers to the Party

Well, as those of you following this thread would know, the way I came out of my quest for stand-mounts was favoring the $6K Totem Element Fire as my first choice. Call me a wimp, but as it came down to actually pulling the trigger I just didn’t feel convinced enough to go ahead with ordering them.

Based on seeing some good comments in the threads about the Focal Electra 1008BE I started to consider it. But there were no dealers in my area that had it available for audition. So my next thought was about the Focal 1007 S, a similar earlier model but without the 1008BE’s beryllium tweeter, which is being offered by Music Direct for $1995 on sale vs. their prior $3500 price. I was thinking about ordering them, but before that I wanted to at least get a feel for the Focal sound.

I checked out the Focal website and discovered a dealer I did not know about that was actually only about ten miles away from my house. So I paid a visit to Sight and Sound Home Theater in San Ramon, CA and it turned out to be a great store with a very responsive owner. Although the only Focal stand-mount he had on display was the Chorus 706V, which I found a bit flat (and not in a necessarily good sense), he had two other stand-mounts that really caught my attention. One from Usher Audio called the Dancer Mini-X ($3500 msrp), and the other from Atlantic Technology, model A-2 ($1800 msrp).

I was impressed enough to now have both in my home for a very generous two-week audition.

My quick first impressions are that the Usher has one of the best finishes, the most heft (35 pounds!) and the smoothest sounding diamond tweeter I have heard - one I much preferred over the B&W diamond tweeter. The Atlantic Technology had some of the best bass I heard in any speaker near its price point, using what they claim is a combination of bass-reflex, acoustic suspension, horn-loaded and transmission line design to achieve that bass response with only a single 5.25” driver. I don’t know how much of that is “marketechture” or true innovation, but the results are impressive.

Anyway, I won’t go into more detail until I have done more listening, but both these speakers are now serious contenders.

I’d welcome any comments, particularly from anyone who’s heard the Focal 1007S, the Usher Dancer Mini-X, or the Atlantic Technology A-2.

Thanks, and as always , please stay tuned.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Did you ever try NHT? They offer a free 30-day trial (free shipping both ways).

 

[Ponzio]

Get the 1008Be's.

I haven't heard the Ushers or the Atlantic Monthlie's but I have heard the 1008Be's and I can attest to their magnificence, even without a sub. Of course plenty of power is needed but what good speaker doesn't crave more power.