sacd player - got it hooked up two ways, one sounds funny.

[bryantm3]

well, to start out, i've got 2 front speakers and a sub, no centre or surrounds. so i hooked up the SACD player by two connections - L/R and the six analogue cables. note that i am playing a 2 channel SACD. when i use the l/r input through the dvd/sacd player, it sounds fine and with full sound. when i use the multi channel input, it seems lacking in bass. no sound is missing, it's not like channels are missing. so does anybody know what the problem could be? it might be something as stupid as not having the subwoofer cable properly plugged in, but i doubt that's the problem.

also, something else in my system is weird. i have my VCR/DVD combo player hooked up to the reciever in the VCR outlet using standard L/R and video cables, functioning soley as a VCR. i have a S-VIDEO cable running from the output jack on the reciever to the television set. when i select vcr on the reciever, the screen goes blank but i can hear the sound. this is probably because you can't convert composite video to s-video, right? does anyone have a solution?

[Pyrrho]

For the SACD, you may have bass management in your player for the multichannel outputs. What you need to do is level match its outputs for proper bass. To do this, you need to read the manual for your SACD player. Also, "it might be something as stupid as not having the subwoofer cable properly plugged in", so it would be a good idea to double check your connections and make sure that you have the subwoofer output of the SACD player connected to the subwoofer input of the receiver.

However, there is little point in using the multichannel output if you don't have the speakers to use it, so you may as well just listen to the stereo output that currently sounds fine and be done with it, at least until you buy some more speakers.

It seems that your receiver does not convert composite video to S-video. So you need to also connect a composite video cable from your receiver to your TV, and switch to the composite input on your TV when you wish to watch video tapes. Or, you can connect the VCR's video output directly to the TV, and still switch to the composite input on your TV when you wish to watch video tapes.

[genesis471]

bryantm3 - agree with what was last said here, suspect it's a bass mamagement setting in you SACD player.
I had a Sony receiver that had the same problem with composite and S-video cables. You could use one or the other, but not both.

PS Your screen name looks familiar, frequent the G-men forum? If so I suspect you are waiting for a bunch of SACD's to be released like I.:cool:

[bryantm3]

bryantm3 - agree with what was last said here, suspect it's a bass mamagement setting in you SACD player.
I had a Sony receiver that had the same problem with composite and S-video cables. You could use one or the other, but not both.

PS Your screen name looks familiar, frequent the G-men forum? If so I suspect you are waiting for a bunch of SACD's to be released like I.:cool:
haha, yes i am expecting the SACDs. the disc i used to test the system out was PG's 'up', which sounds so much better on SACD that i think it might be a different mix. i went back in the speaker menu, and set all the speakers to 'large' and put all the volume levels to 0 (the settings go from -15 to 0 on the front speakers, and -15 to +5 on the subwoofer) and it still sounds weak. so i did the test tones that came with the system, and i had the left and right channels reversed. so i switched the cables, and it still sounds watered down. i think it might be the multi channel input on my reciever, i think it might be putting the signal straight through into the speakers w/o any amp.

[bryantm3]

but seriously, how do i change bass management? i don't think it has this option...

[jaxvon]

What kind of player do you have? I have a fairly inexpensive Pioneer player (DV-578AS) and it has an on-screen menu to adjust bass management options. It doesn't have an adjustable crossover, but I can set speaker distances and speakers as large or small.

[bryantm3]

oh, i also have it hooked up with a single-line thingy (forgot what it's called.. i just know it's not coaxial or HDMI, and it carries dolby digital, and doesn't carry the SACD signal.)

i just wish they made a single line digital plug for sacd to reciever. the dvd player has to convert it to analogue and it mucks it all up.

[jaxvon]

oh, i also have it hooked up with a single-line thingy (forgot what it's called.. i just know it's not coaxial or HDMI, and it carries dolby digital, and doesn't carry the SACD signal.)

See my previous post. And actually, that's just called "coaxial digital audio", so you were basically right.

[bryantm3]

What kind of player do you have? I have a fairly inexpensive Pioneer player (DV-578AS) and it has an on-screen menu to adjust bass management options. It doesn't have an adjustable crossover, but I can set speaker distances and speakers as large or small.
it's a Sony DVP-NS90V

[bryantm3]

See my previous post. And actually, that's just called "coaxial digital audio", so you were basically right.
no no it's not coaxial.. it's this thing with a square plug.. coaxial takes an RCA plug.

[genesis471]

Perhaps it is an optical cable you are speaking of? And you already mentioned no SACD transmission over the single cable, just over the analogs.
Not really knowing your player but have you checked the setup menu for bass management?
Also, is the PG sacd your only one? If so it would help to have another sacd as a reference. PG does a great job on his SACD's, but not all SACD's are perfect! Ironically I have his video's on dvd (can't remember the title right now), and if I select DTS the sound is just jacked! If I select DD it plays fine, also 2 channel. Something is likely wrong with the dvd I think.
If you are using a sub I believe you want your speakers set on small, and your sub crossover frequency set at 80hz. Bass below 80 should go to the sub, and above 80 to your speakers.
What kind of receiver by the way?
Hey, nice to see you over here from the other forum. This place should be a sticky, and direct link in the Nick Davis section. lol
Took me a while to get my stuff working correctly for sacd's as well, but once I did.... wholy sh*t!
Can't wait for the G catalog to be released on SACD (or multichannel of somesort)!

Mike

[bryantm3]

help! help!

[bryantm3]

i can't find any options for adjusting bass in the dvd player.

[mak99]

no no it's not coaxial.. it's this thing with a square plug.. coaxial takes an RCA plug.
Yes, that would be the optical cable. You cannot send the SACD signal through that, as far as I know. You're better off sticking to the L+R analog out (and NOT the L+R of the 5.1 outputs).

Unless you're talking about the HDMI connection?

BTW, below is a link to Sony's website and the owner's manual for your player. This might help troubleshooting the problem...

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_ViewStatic-Start?page=%2fstatic%2fhelp%2fsy_help%2eisml

[bryantm3]

there are no sound adjustments for the 5.1 output. i've looked the manual through and through and the dvd player itself. it's probably just because i have it going through L and R only, and that's probably why. but then again, i have a two channel SACD, and it sounds weak on multi channel as well...

[bryantm3]

anybody got ANY suggestions?

[MACCA350]

bryantm3, what model receiver do you have?
i've looked the manual through and through and the dvd player itself. it's probably just because i have it going through L and R only
In the Multichannel setup of the player do you have the speakers set to LARGE? If they are set to small then your player may be cutting the bass to your mains, this could explain the difference between the analogue L/R and the multichannel because I think the bass management only applies to the multichannel outputs and not the analogue L/R outputs.

Your player has 2 sets of Bass management
1 is under 'SPEAKER SETUP' -> 'DVD'
2 is under 'SPEAKER SETUP' -> 'SUPER AUDIO CD'
So make sure you have both setup

cheers:)

[bryantm3]

bryantm3, what model receiver do you have?

In the Multichannel setup of the player do you have the speakers set to LARGE? If they are set to small then your player may be cutting the bass to your mains, this could explain the difference between the analogue L/R and the multichannel because I think the bass management only applies to the multichannel outputs and not the analogue L/R outputs.

Your player has 2 sets of Bass management
1 is under 'SPEAKER SETUP' -> 'DVD'
2 is under 'SPEAKER SETUP' -> 'SUPER AUDIO CD'
So make sure you have both setup

cheers:)

both were already set to large, sub is set to on, volume levels are now at max for all of them. when i go to multichannel input, it sounds okay, but it you can't feel the sound like you usually can, so that's why i think it's the bass. when i switch it to analogue l/r you can immmediately hear the difference.

[bryantm3]

~~~~~!!!!!

[Johnd]

~~~~~!!!!!
Post your receiver model as previously requested and then, perhaps, direct answers to your questions may be offered.

[bryantm3]

oh, i didn't know anyone asked my reciver model. sorry!

yamaha RX-V757.

[mak99]

oh, i didn't know anyone asked my reciver model. sorry!

yamaha RX-V757.
OK, now for some basic questions to see how your two components are connected:



Sony DVD 5.1 analog out is obviously connected to the "MULTI CH INPUTS" on the Yamaha amp. Are the "SURROUND BACK" inputs left unused?
Sony DVD digital (optical) out should be connected to the DVD INPUT (#3 as shown on p. 16 of the Yamaha manual).
Sony DVD L+R analog out should be connected to the DVD input on the Yamaha amp.

One problem might be that the amp, when in the DVD mode, may default to the digital input over the analog input, if both are connected. Try switching the analog connections on the amp to CD or MD inputs, then compare the sound output...

Does this make a difference?

[bryantm3]

OK, now for some basic questions to see how your two components are connected:



Sony DVD 5.1 analog out is obviously connected to the "MULTI CH INPUTS" on the Yamaha amp. Are the "SURROUND BACK" inputs left unused?
Sony DVD digital (optical) out should be connected to the DVD INPUT (#3 as shown on p. 16 of the Yamaha manual).
Sony DVD L+R analog out should be connected to the DVD input on the Yamaha amp.

One problem might be that the amp, when in the DVD mode, may default to the digital input over the analog input, if both are connected. Try switching the analog connections on the amp to CD or MD inputs, then compare the sound output...

Does this make a difference?

okay, yes the surround back outputs are unused. the optical plug is plugged in correctly, and the standard L+R jacks are plugged into the dvd space. i can change the input with the remote from analogue to multi channel input to dolby digital, so i know i'm hearing different things. it's really hard to get around there and switch wires, if you knew where it was you'd understand.. it just sounds weak through the 5.1 analogue input.

[krabapple]

i can't find any options for adjusting bass in the dvd player.

Read the bloomin' manual. Subwoofer setting is p 76.

I can't even tell from your posts if your subwoofer is working.

Anyway. Let's assume you are playing a regular CD, not a surround disc. If you have SUBWOOFER set to YES as per p 76, you won't get bass from the 6-channel panel of your player unless you connect its WOOFER output jack to the subwoofer input jack on the 6-jack panel of the AVR. That's because setting SUBWOOFER to YES tells the player to split the bass out and send it out the WOOFER jack. Of course it only does this for the 6-channel output panel. If you use the 'regular' L/R 2-jack panel -- the one labelled 'L-audio-R' -- this doesn't happen, the player always sends a full-range signal out of those. And for those, the AVR will do the 'splitting' after it receives the signal from the player. But most AVRs CAN'T do this sort of splitting for the 6-channel jack input. Don't ask why, it just is. That's why for the 6-channel output panel, you have to make sure your player settings and connections allow the bass to be output correctly.


So, what you really want to do, is

1) set your player to SUBWOOFER ON, then
2) connect THREE cables from the player's six-channel out panel (the one labelled '5.1 output') to the AVR's 6-channel input: one from front left, one from front right, and one from WOOFER. These go to the correspoding input jacks on the AVR's 6-jack panel (front left, front right, subwoofer)

Now, when you select '6-channel' as your input source, you should hear bass from the subwoofer. If it isn't loud enough, go into the player menu and adjust the SUBWOOFER channel level, as described on p 77 of your user's manual. This will only affect output from the 6-panel connections.

If you also feel you must have a connection from the 2-jack 'L-Audio-R' panel, connect this to the 'DVD' or 'CD' inputs of your receiver. Or, use a digital connection (coaxial or optical). In either case your AVR should do the proper bass splitting (bass management).

The reason stuff might sound 'weak' from the analog 6-channel panel in this setup, compared to the digital connection, is that all of the channel levels for 6-channel analog need to be set in the PLAYER. Meanwhile, for your other connections, the channel levels are determined by the RECEIVER menu adjustments. CHances are they aren't matched to the player's. To match them properly you need a sound pressure level meter ($35 bucks from Radio Shack)
and some test tones (you rplayer and receiver probably both output test tones).

[bryantm3]

Read the bloomin' manual. Subwoofer setting is p 76.

I can't even tell from your posts if your subwoofer is working.

Anyway. Let's assume you are playing a regular CD, not a surround disc. If you have SUBWOOFER set to YES as per p 76, you won't get bass from the 6-channel panel of your player unless you connect its WOOFER output jack to the subwoofer input jack on the 6-jack panel of the AVR. That's because setting SUBWOOFER to YES tells the player to split the bass out and send it out the WOOFER jack. Of course it only does this for the 6-channel output panel. If you use the 'regular' L/R 2-jack panel -- the one labelled 'L-audio-R' -- this doesn't happen, the player always sends a full-range signal out of those. And for those, the AVR will do the 'splitting' after it receives the signal from the player. But most AVRs CAN'T do this sort of splitting for the 6-channel jack input. Don't ask why, it just is. That's why for the 6-channel output panel, you have to make sure your player settings and connections allow the bass to be output correctly.


So, what you really want to do, is

1) set your player to SUBWOOFER ON, then
2) connect THREE cables from the player's six-channel out panel (the one labelled '5.1 output') to the AVR's 6-channel input: one from front left, one from front right, and one from WOOFER. These go to the correspoding input jacks on the AVR's 6-jack panel (front left, front right, subwoofer)

Now, when you select '6-channel' as your input source, you should hear bass from the subwoofer. If it isn't loud enough, go into the player menu and adjust the SUBWOOFER channel level, as described on p 77 of your user's manual. This will only affect output from the 6-panel connections.

If you also feel you must have a connection from the 2-jack 'L-Audio-R' panel, connect this to the 'DVD' or 'CD' inputs of your receiver. Or, use a digital connection (coaxial or optical). In either case your AVR should do the proper bass splitting (bass management).

The reason stuff might sound 'weak' from the analog 6-channel panel in this setup, compared to the digital connection, is that all of the channel levels for 6-channel analog need to be set in the PLAYER. Meanwhile, for your other connections, the channel levels are determined by the RECEIVER menu adjustments. CHances are they aren't matched to the player's. To match them properly you need a sound pressure level meter ($35 bucks from Radio Shack)
and some test tones (you rplayer and receiver probably both output test tones).

i used test tones, all the volume from the 5.1 jacks is set to maximum. i may try fooling around with the reciever settings.
edit: messing w/ the reciver settings didn't work either. what i think may be the case is that it may be sending signals that aren't amplified, and expects the reciever to do that, but it isn't...

[krabapple]

i used test tones,

from what, player or receiver? I will assume you mean the player.

all the volume from the 5.1 jacks is set to maximum.

ok, and how does this compare to the AVR test tones? And do you have subwoofer set to ON in the player, with a connection betweem the sub out and the sub in of the gear?

i may try fooling around with the reciever settings.
edit: messing w/ the reciver settings didn't work either. what i think may be the case is that it may be sending signals that aren't amplified, and expects the reciever to do that, but it isn't...

? If your multichannel analog input is a simple 'pass through', there may be no amplification. But you should still be able to match the output of the player in each channel to the equivalent output of the receiver, when it's getting Dolby Digital input for example. And I still don't understand your connection setup. It sounds like you have a digital connection AND a 2-channel analog connection AND maybe a 6-channel analog connection to different inputs of your AVR. True?

I also don't understand which channels in particular sound 'weak' to you.

Does your receiver allow channel level adjustment of the 6-channel inputs?

Are you sure you are playing the 2-channel tracks of any SACD or DVD-A disc you are listening to?

Have you carefully read the manuals for both devices?

[Johnd]

Krabapple's not just a nickname, is it? Just kidding. Bryantm3 sounds confused. There's no reason he should not just be able to connect the player and receiver digitally, and then methodically identify the problem (w/ the sub, center, or whatever). I suggest he disconnect everything, reconnect, read the manuals for a cursory self-education, then post with a specific problem (with his connections, speakers or bass management system).

[krabapple]

Krabapple's not just a nickname, is it? Just kidding. Bryantm3 sounds confused. There's no reason he should not just be able to connect the player and receiver digitally, and then methodically identify the problem (w/ the sub, center, or whatever). I suggest he disconnect everything, reconnect, read the manuals for a cursory self-education, then post with a specific problem (with his connections, speakers or bass management system).


Agreed, I'd only add that he should reset the AVR and player to factory defaults (that's in the manual too).

I have a strong feeling this problem is going to turn out to be something...shall we say, elemental...

[bryantm3]

from what, player or receiver? I will assume you mean the player.

test tones are from the player, yes.


ok, and how does this compare to the AVR test tones? And do you have subwoofer set to ON in the player, with a connection betweem the sub out and the sub in of the gear? as i have stated before, the subwoofer is set to on, plugged in, and is recieving the subwoofer signal.



? If your multichannel analog input is a simple 'pass through', there may be no amplification. But you should still be able to match the output of the player in each channel to the equivalent output of the receiver, when it's getting Dolby Digital input for example. And I still don't understand your connection setup. It sounds like you have a digital connection AND a 2-channel analog connection AND maybe a 6-channel analog connection to different inputs of your AVR. True?

I also don't understand which channels in particular sound 'weak' to you.

Does your receiver allow channel level adjustment of the 6-channel inputs?

Are you sure you are playing the 2-channel tracks of any SACD or DVD-A disc you are listening to?

Have you carefully read the manuals for both devices?

well, i don't need to adjust the six channels because i'm not using six channels.. i've only got a left and right channel plus a subwoofer, and i'm using a stereo SACD to test it out. also, my setup is this:
-1 S-VIDEO cable from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-2 standard L/R RCA cables from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-1 digital optical connection from dvd to reciever in correct slot
-6 RCA cables from 5.1 output on dvd player to multi channel input on reciever.

the dvd player settings:
-speakers set to large
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-centre speaker - no
-surround speakers - no
-subwoofer - yes

reciever settings:
(there are no specific settings for multi channel input, by the way)
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-subwoofer - yes
-speakers set to small
-subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz.
-all other speakers are set to off, since i don't have them.

i know that the multi channel inputs are plugged in correctly, because the test tones from the DVD player work for the subwoofer, left, and right channels.
what i'm hearing is this:

do you know what it would sound like if there was practically no bass coming out of the speakers, but it doesn't sound like it's in mono or has bad treble, it's just the lack of bass and 'boominess' i suppose.

about reconnecting the entire thing, i decline. like i said previously, the position of the reciever and the way the wires are fed, if i fool with it, all the wires may come unplugged and it would take me hours to reconnect it all, and it would be doubly difficult, since i didn't set up all of it (the hifi buys guy set up half.)

also, the digital input is fine, so it would be foolish to disconnect that and work with it. also, SACDs do not come through the digital output.

[Johnd]

It sounds like a bass management issue. If that's your only problem, it's simple: you need to adjust the bass in the bass management settings to +5, or maybe even +10 or +15 db.

If you have no bass management in the player, you'll need to get a newer one. I believe only the earliest model sacd players did not have bass management, it was soon realized that there was an absolute need for it, and now most, if not all sacd players have some form of bass management. There are articles on this right here at Audioholics like this one
DVD Audio & SACD - The Royal Scam Part II
Let us know.

[shokhead]

test tones are from the player, yes.

as i have stated before, the subwoofer is set to on, plugged in, and is recieving the subwoofer signal.




well, i don't need to adjust the six channels because i'm not using six channels.. i've only got a left and right channel plus a subwoofer, and i'm using a stereo SACD to test it out. also, my setup is this:
-1 S-VIDEO cable from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-2 standard L/R RCA cables from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-1 digital optical connection from dvd to reciever in correct slot
-6 RCA cables from 5.1 output on dvd player to multi channel input on reciever.

the dvd player settings:
-speakers set to large
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-centre speaker - no
-surround speakers - no
-subwoofer - yes

reciever settings:
(there are no specific settings for multi channel input, by the way)
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-subwoofer - yes
-speakers set to small
-subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz.
-all other speakers are set to off, since i don't have them.

i know that the multi channel inputs are plugged in correctly, because the test tones from the DVD player work for the subwoofer, left, and right channels.
what i'm hearing is this:

do you know what it would sound like if there was practically no bass coming out of the speakers, but it doesn't sound like it's in mono or has bad treble, it's just the lack of bass and 'boominess' i suppose.

about reconnecting the entire thing, i decline. like i said previously, the position of the reciever and the way the wires are fed, if i fool with it, all the wires may come unplugged and it would take me hours to reconnect it all, and it would be doubly difficult, since i didn't set up all of it (the hifi buys guy set up half.)

also, the digital input is fine, so it would be foolish to disconnect that and work with it. also, SACDs do not come through the digital output.

Should have 2 bm setups on the sony,one for DVD and one for SACD,right?

[Johnd]

A quick search on this product told me it can be had for $80.00, and I can find no bass management on it (for $80 what do you expect?). It seems it has adjustments for size, distance and volume, but not bass management. I think that's your problem.

[krabapple]

test tones are from the player, yes.

as i have stated before, the subwoofer is set to on, plugged in, and is recieving the subwoofer signal.




well, i don't need to adjust the six channels because i'm not using six channels.. i've only got a left and right channel plus a subwoofer, and i'm using a stereo SACD to test it out.


*If* your receiver allows individual channel level adjustment of 6-channel inputs (big IF), and if you are plugged into the 6-channel inputs, even if it's just the left/r/sub jacks that you're using, then you should be able to adjust the levels of those three channels in the AVR (as well as in the player).


also, my setup is this:
-1 S-VIDEO cable from dvd to reciever in dvd slot

irrelevant to your problem, as it's video


-2 standard L/R RCA cables from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-1 digital optical connection from dvd to reciever in correct slot

These two are redundant for your setup. I can't see why you'd need both.
I would stick with the digital optical, for CD and DVD sound. You will of course have to set either your player or AVR to 'downmix' surround DVD tracks, if there's no stereo option on the DVD disc menu itself.


-6 RCA cables from 5.1 output on dvd player to multi channel input on receiver.

Required for your 2-channel SACD/DVD-A playback.


the dvd player settings:
-speakers set to large
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-centre speaker - no
-surround speakers - no
-subwoofer - yes

OK , this means that when you play a 2-channel SACD/DVD-A, the bass will NOT be directed to the subwoofer output jack of the player's 6-channel panel, because your speakers are set to large. It's usually advisable to set the speakers to SMALL, whenever you have subwoofer ON -- but certainly if you wish bass to be routed from two-channel mixes to the sub.

I suspect this is the main cause of the problems you hear.


reciever settings:
(there are no specific settings for multi channel input, by the way)
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-subwoofer - yes
-speakers set to small
-subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz.
-all other speakers are set to off, since i don't have them.

Chances are these have no effect on the 6-channel panel input. They would affect the other two audio connections you have.

i know that the multi channel inputs are plugged in correctly, because the test tones from the DVD player work for the subwoofer, left, and right channels.
what i'm hearing is this:

do you know what it would sound like if there was practically no bass coming out of the speakers, but it doesn't sound like it's in mono or has bad treble, it's just the lack of bass and 'boominess' i suppose.

Despite sub being set ON, I suspect you have NO signal coming from your sub, when you select mult-channel as input and play a stereo SACD, since you have speakers set to LARGE. The only time you'd get bass from the multi-out sub jack in this case, would be if you selected a *multichannel* mix on an SACD. But then you'd lose the center and surround channels, since you don't have these speakers. It would sound very strange indeed.

Go into your player menus, set front l/r to SMALL, and you should now hear plenty of bass from your sub. Too much perhaps, since you have all the play channel levels maxed out. You may have to readjust those.

Are you sure you're playing the *stereo* SACD tracks on an SACD? Often that's not the default, if there's a multichannel mix.

[krabapple]

A quick search on this product told me it can be had for $80.00, and I can find no bass management on it (for $80 what do you expect?). It seems it has adjustments for size, distance and volume, but not bass management. I think that's your problem.

The Sony player does have BM -- whenever you can select large or small speakers, that's BM. The problem is that he has it set incorrectly, so that it's not doing anything for a 2-channel SACD source. He needs to set his speakers to small.

[Johnd]

He needs to set his speakers to small.

Actually, it's just the opposite. When you set speakers to large, the entire frequency is being sent to the speaker. Conversely, when set to small, frequencies below a set parameter (plus roll-off), say 120, 100, or 80 Hz, are directed to the subwoofer. Either way, that seems to be his problem:he's got bass management, it's just sorely inadequate. That's my educated guess anyway.

[Johnd]

krabapple: another possibility is that his speakers just don't go low enough. He has yet to post what his speakers are. He does say that there does not seem to be enough bass in 5.1, which he is directing into 2.0, or 2.1. Which seems to infer that there is enough bass in stereo sound...but he has never said that. So, bryantm3, is there plenty of bass in stereo, and what type/model of speakers are you running?

Edit:
Actually, bryantm3 does say that in his first post. My oversight. I was going to suggest you drive your mains through the sub, but if you get plenty of bass out of the two mains in dvd, it's moot.

[krabapple]

Actually, it's just the opposite. When you set speakers to large, the entire frequency is being sent to the speaker. Conversely, when set to small, frequencies below a set parameter (plus roll-off), say 120, 100, or 80 Hz, are directed to the subwoofer.

How on earth is that the *opposite* of what I wrote?? Set to LARGE, the left and right fronts are getting full-frequency output (assuming the AVR doesn't do its own BM, which in the case of the 6-channel analog input, it almost certainly isn't). But the SUB is getting zilch, nada, nothing, from a two-channel mix, in that configuration. Set to SMALL, the bass is extracted from any 'small' channels and routed to the sub. So he needs to set the speakers in his player to SMALL, else his bass is going to sound 'weak' compared to a digital source (where the AVR does bass management).

Put another way: He has his speakers set to LARGE in the player. That means that in situations where the *player* determines the bass management -- i.e, analog output from the 6-channel panel -- there's going to be NO output from the sub channel, if there is no .1 info on the disc to begin with. For a two-channel mix, it doesn't matter that sub is set to ON...with speakers set to LARGE, a two-channel mix will stay entirely in the front left/right, if it's output from the 6-channel analog panel.



Either way, that seems to be his problem:he's got bass management, it's just sorely inadequate. That's my educated guess anyway.


Whereas I predict his problem is he's not getting 'enough' (as in *any*) output from his sub, from two-channel SACDs, with his current config.

This is assuming he's not doing something really silly, like playing the a 5.1 mix in a 2.1 setup without downmixing.

[krabapple]

krabapple: another possibility is that his speakers just don't go low enough. He has yet to post what his speakers are. He does say that there does not seem to be enough bass in 5.1, which he is directing into 2.0, or 2.1. Which seems to infer that there is enough bass in stereo sound...but he has never said that. So, bryantm3, is there plenty of bass in stereo, and what type/model of speakers are you running?

He doesn't have a 5.1 setup. As I understand it, he has 2 speakers + a sub. So he shouldn't be playing 5.1 sources anyway, unless he's got downmixing on.

Edit:
Actually, bryantm3 does say that in his first post. My oversight. I was going to suggest you drive your mains through the sub, but if you get plenty of bass out of the two mains in dvd, it's moot.

I don't think it's a complicated as all this. I expect his digital and 'dedicated' analog 2-channel input are being bass managed by the receiver, whereas SACD (6-channel input) is bass managed in the player. Hence the difference.
The SACD player isn't doing any bass re-routing in its current configuration (because he has speakers set to LARGE), whereas I bet his AVR is. I'm guessing he has speakers set to SMALL in his AVR, or is comparing his SACD play to X.1 dolby digital/DTS playback -- in either case, he's comparing a situation where there *isn't* subwoofer output, to a situation where there *is*.

[tomd51]

bryantm3;
I know this has been suggested several times here, confusingly at times, but I'm not sure you've done this. Unless your mains (L/R) are capable of a FR down to ~30Hz, you should be setting your speakers to small on your DVD player as well as your receiver.

The subwoofer will be handling any signal 80Hz and lower as you've previously specified this is what has been set on your receiver as the crossover level. You really don't want to send this signal to your mains unless they are very bass capable. -TD

[Johnd]

How on earth is that the *opposite* of what I wrote??

Whereas I predict his problem is he's not getting 'enough' (as in *any*) output from his sub, from two-channel SACDs, with his current config.

This is assuming he's not doing something really silly, like playing the a 5.1 mix in a 2.1 setup without downmixing.

Now, now krabapple...I'm trying to figure this one out just like you. I missed the part where he's lacking bass "in his sub"; this thread is rife with statement that he's lacking bass. I think he's confused. He keeps writing stereo and 2 channel (not 2.1), which to me means two speakers. I think he means there is not enough bass in his mains; that's why I wrote set the speakers to "large." He also wrote early on:

"oh, i also have it hooked up with a single-line thingy (forgot what it's called.. i just know it's not coaxial or HDMI, and it carries dolby digital, and doesn't carry the SACD signal.)

i just wish they made a single line digital plug for sacd to reciever. the dvd player has to convert it to analogue and it mucks it all up."

How many posters here don't know what an optical cable is called (answer: optical cable). Clearly he's a little confused. Why bother with sacd's and sacd players if you're only going to play it through 2.0 or 2.1? Audioholics is for the novice, mid-level audiophyte, as well as the afficionado...that's one of the things I like about it. If bryantm3 writes his problem(s) more succintly, I'm happy to offer assistance, otherwise I'm done here (toast).

Additionally, the quip about lack of bass management, when I clearly identified it in the exact same sentence, was not meant for you, but for bryantm3. If he doesn't know what an optical cable is, do you really think he can properly set up bass management with just a post or two? It's not that complicated, but it's certainly not that simple. There are whole threads dedicated to bass management. I would direct him there (as well as the manuals, which you have already done). And some universal players are lacking in the bass management department, particularly those players in the $80.00 range. I don't know. In any event, it sometimes pays to put your feelers out, just to see what you reel in. Anyway, I was not attempting to disparage my Scottish brother in arms (i'm assuming that from the "Read the bloomin manual" comment. Cheers!

[bryantm3]

well, from reading the posts here, i made some adjustments, but they are irrelevant because changing the speaker setting to small didn't change the sound at all, so that's why i've been so confused with bass management; my player doesn't have any. i was hoping this would be a good quality dvd/sacd player, i paid 200$ at hifi buys. i guess i just won't use the 5.1 outputs, then.

[krabapple]

Now, now krabapple...I'm trying to figure this one out just like you. I missed the part where he's lacking bass "in his sub"; this thread is rife with statement that he's lacking bass. I think he's confused. He keeps writing stereo and 2 channel (not 2.1), which to me means two speakers. I think he means there is not enough bass in his mains; that's why I wrote set the speakers to "large." He also wrote early on:

"oh, i also have it hooked up with a single-line thingy (forgot what it's called.. i just know it's not coaxial or HDMI, and it carries dolby digital, and doesn't carry the SACD signal.)

i just wish they made a single line digital plug for sacd to receiver. the dvd player has to convert it to analogue and it mucks it all up."

How many posters here don't know what an optical cable is called (answer: optical cable). Clearly he's a little confused. Why bother with sacd's and sacd players if you're only going to play it through 2.0 or 2.1? Audioholics is for the novice, mid-level audiophyte, as well as the afficionado...that's one of the things I like about it. If bryantm3 writes his problem(s) more succintly, I'm happy to offer assistance, otherwise I'm done here (toast).

- There are quite a few notable SACDs out there that don't include a surround mix (e.g., most of the Police and Peter Gabriel catalogs; Michael Jackson's 'Thriller'). Most if not all of the early Sony SACD remasters didn't have one, though some of these were later rereleased with a surround mix.

- There is a single-line digital plug for SACD to receiver, called firewire/ilink/IEEE1394, but it's only available on a few models of AVRs and DVDA/SACD players. There are also some proprietary versions of the same idea (e.g. Denonlink).

- optical cable is often also called 'toslink' cable because of its connectors

[krabapple]

well, from reading the posts here, i made some adjustments, but they are irrelevant because changing the speaker setting to small didn't change the sound at all, so that's why i've been so confused with bass management; my player doesn't have any. i was hoping this would be a good quality dvd/sacd player, i paid 200$ at hifi buys. i guess i just won't use the 5.1 outputs, then.

You don't seem to be doing anything in a systematic fashion. You've by no means demonstrated that your player is broken. What you should be doing is trying to isolate different variables, to see which are affecting the sound.
You have way too many connections going on at once, to do this simply, and you're giving too little information for me, or anyone, to diagnose this properly.

What you should do at this point is DISCONNECT *all* audio connections, except the subwoofer cable from the multi-channel out panel. Ideally, run this connection directly from the player, to the input on the subwoofer itself, bypassing the AVR.

I learn from perusing your owner's manual that your player has SEPARATE
speaker settings for SACD and DVD sources. That means you have to be sure you are making settings that apply to SACD sources, if you plan on playing SACDs.

in the setup menu (display -->custom-->audio-->speaker setup)

- Select 'Super Audio CD' then set speakers to small and subwoofer to YES (p 75) Set center and surrounds to 'NONE'.

- The same holds true for 'level' and 'distance' settings -- there are separate settings for DVD and SACD. Make sure you have adjusted them for SACD rather than DVD. (p 76-77)

- make sure AUDIO ATT (p 73) is set to OFF

- for the third time : are you sure you're playing *2-channel* SACD material?
On a multichannel or hybrid SACD, select the two-channel mix on the SACD layer, not the CD layer (p 32)

If you've done all this correctly, you should definitely hear something from the subwoofer. This demonstrates that bass management is working in the player. You can test this further by playing the same stereo SACD track, but first setting the front left/right speakers to LARGE. There should now be no output from the sub.

If the sub output with SACD speakers set SMALL is low, turn up the volume control directly on the sub (assuming it has one). You can always attenuate it later using one of the menus in the player or AVR.

Once you have determined that Sony BM is indeed working for SACD sources, witha direct connection to the subwoofer, then you can begin to investigate what it happening after the signal goes to the AVR in the normal connected setup.

[Johnd]

krabapple: That is a methodical and well-devised plan (of attack) that you've suggested for bryantm3 (much of which has already been suggested). Let's see what transpires.

[Johnd]

- There are quite a few notable SACDs out there that don't include a surround mix

At the risk of hijacking this thread, "quite a few" is a relative term. Forgive me, because I am not trying to be disagreeable, but I just purchased my sacd player (I know, I'm a dinosaur), and after much research, I did it only for multichannel playback, it's true purpose.

I will self-thwart my inclination to argue whether or not Michael Jackson, as well as his sacd "Thriller" are examples of an accomplished musician, songwriter, or music, when true musicians, like Al Di Meola, Jeff Beck, Yo-Yo Ma, Miles Davis, as well as the countless thousands of classical examples (modern "covers") of Rachmaninov, Schubert, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., are what sacd is all about...at least for me.

Hopefully, bryantm3 takes your suggestion. As you posted earlier, it sounds like a simple setup or cabling issue, that when approached methodically, is easily identified and cured. Cheers!

[Buckle-meister]

...I was not attempting to disparage my Scottish brother in arms...

Just as well laddie! ;)

[Johnd]

Buckle-meister: I don't know what you're drinking over there, but one of my best bottles of single malt is a 25 year old bottle of Balvenie. What do you think?

[krabapple]

At the risk of hijacking this thread, "quite a few" is a relative term. Forgive me, because I am not trying to be disagreeable, but I just purchased my sacd player (I know, I'm a dinosaur), and after much research, I did it only for multichannel playback, it's true purpose.

I will self-thwart my inclination to argue whether or not Michael Jackson, as well as his sacd "Thriller" are examples of an accomplished musician, songwriter, or music, when true musicians, like Al Di Meola, Jeff Beck, Yo-Yo Ma, Miles Davis, as well as the countless thousands of classical examples (modern "covers") of Rachmaninov, Schubert, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., are what sacd is all about...at least for me.


I have an SACD of Al DiMeola's Elegant Gypsy -- stereo only.
Several Miles Davis SACDs -- stereo only (Kind of Blue being the only 'multichannel' one)
a classical CD of works by Gould and Gottschalk -- stereo only
More recently releases include Neil Young's 'On the Beach' -- stereo only.

Like I said, nearly *ALL* of Sony's initial releases were stereo only SACDs.
They're far less common now, but they're still out there, and they're still released.

I agree that the primary 'perk' of SACD and DVD-A is the surround mix. But you also get a remaster of the two-channel mix, whihc may or may not be superior to current CD versions. (The chances are better for SACD, since digital clipping isn't allowed in SACD mastering)


As for who is and isn't a musician, if Quincy Jones considers Michael Jackson a musician, and 'Thriller' to be music, that's more than good enough for me.

Btwe, I prefer the Balvenie 12 to the other vintages. Don't know why, but that one just tastes better to me.

[bryantm3]

i have tried all that you've said, and how you're suggesting i should have it set up in the menu is how i set it up all along. i am getting a signal to my subwoofer, i verified that with the test tones. changing the speaker size to small does virtually nothing. i've just determined that it's the player that doesn't have adequate bass management.

[Johnd]

i've just determined that it's the player that doesn't have adequate bass management.

bryantm3: I suggested that some 15 posts ago. Glad to hear that you've finally identified the problem.

krabapple: I'm glad to hear that you're more musically diverse than Michael Jackson, and Quincy Jones. I like and respect them both...for pop music.

My comment was simply meant to illustrate there's a huge difference between the "bubble gum" pop machines that are cranking out the tunes, but all they've really got is a good beat; totally devoid of instrumental timbre, beauty of tone, well-chosen tempos, etc., etc., etc.

Pop's ok. There's a Kelly Clarkson born every minute. But not a Davis, Shubert or Rachmaninov.

[bryantm3]

i like progressive music because it is a combination of the elements of classical music with the ability to expand using rock and jazz instruments, and in some cases, techno beats.
try listening to 'unquiet slumbers for the sleepers......in that quiet earth'/ afterglow by genesis. it's an excellent song in movements, but it's divided into three tracks, so don't plug all that into google and expect to find anything. it's the last three tracks on their 1976 album 'Wind & Wuthering'. mp3 doesn't do it any good, since it's supposed to flow together, though.

[bryantm3]

bryantm3: I suggested that some 15 posts ago. Glad to hear that you've finally identified the problem.

krabapple: I'm glad to hear that you're more musically diverse than Michael Jackson, and Quincy Jones. I like and respect them both...for pop music.

My comment was simply meant to illustrate there's a huge difference between the "bubble gum" pop machines that are cranking out the tunes, but all they've really got is a good beat; totally devoid of instrumental timbre, beauty of tone, well-chosen tempos, etc., etc., etc.

Pop's ok. There's a Kelly Clarkson born every minute. But not a Davis, Shubert or Rachmaninov.
oh, yeah, the post above is also directed towards you. but about bass management, i didn't even consider that a possibility until you mentioned it. i guess just the l/r analogue outputs should do fine with downmixing, as they sound excellent with SACDs. even though this isn't a top of the line SACD player, the difference in sound compared to regular CDs is phenominal. so if i upgrade to surround sound (which i may not ever do, considering i'd have to buy 5 monoblock 200 watt amplifiers, or one kickass do it all multichannel 2000 watt amplifier, plus get a new sacd player), i will probably be even more surprised.

[Johnd]

That's what sacd is all about for me. Knock your socks off presence. Glad you figured it out and are now enjoying it.

On your other point, no, you don't need to go so far as "5 monoblock 200 watt amplifiers, or one kick*** do it all multichannel 2000 watt amplifier", a 120+ watt multichannel will do fine. It's all relative. I've got a Denon dvd2900, Denon avr 5803, w/ Paradigm studio 100 mains, cc-570 center, servo 15 sub, and minimonitor surrounds, all had for under 6k. Will it ever compare to highfihoney's setup? Not a chance. Does it sound phenomenal and give me everything I want in a surround sytem. Absolutely. Have I ever looked back? Never.

[shokhead]

My head is spinning.

[bryantm3]

i'm talking about with the current speakers i have, i would need those/an amplifier(s). i have two RTi8s and to get equal sound, i would rather have equal speakers all the way around instead of different sound, for 5.1 music. but since that would be impossible for a centre channel, i'm willing to get a typical centre channel speaker. even with the two speakers i have now, i don't think i'm giving them enough power. but that's all way in the future.

[Johnd]

My head is spinning.

I know. Is that a sweet Mac setup, or what?

[bryantm3]

so, on a related topic, what SACD players do you recommend? i'd prefer to have just a single disc player, and with dvd mode also. i hate dealing with the 5000 disc players and all that crap. i actually like this sony player because it's fairly simple to set up and operate (despite the fact that it has inadequate bass management, i set it up right the first time). and it plays DVDs and SACDs through the standard L/R outputs fine. it also has seperate buttons for fast forward and next chapter (which i REALLY dig.)
but when this one goes out in two or three years, what would you recommend i look for an updated version of, or what features should i look for?

[shokhead]

You could be dead in 2-3 years,worry about it then. Hard to say what models will be out then. DVD could be dead.

[krabapple]

bryantm3: I suggested that some 15 posts ago. Glad to hear that you've finally identified the problem.

No, he hasn't. He's extrapolated a conclusion --but the logic of it is not established. He says he hadn't even *considered* bass management as a possibility before you mentioned it, now we're to believe he's pinned it down to 'inadequate bass management'? He hasn't detailed the results of various experiments as I outlined. E.g., he says he gets sub output -- under what conditions? Does it go away when he sets speakers to LARGE? What happens when other cables are disconnected? Did he try running the sub out directly into the sub? What are the settings for his non-SACD sources, in the AVR particularly? Are we comparing like to like here at all? Do Sony SACD players tend to have 'poor bass management' for SACD? Has anyone else reporte dthis problem for this model?

I'm giving up, because bryant doesn't seem to want to get into the sort of reporting detail that's required to diagnose the problem properly.

My comment was simply meant to illustrate there's a huge difference between the "bubble gum" pop machines that are cranking out the tunes, but all they've really got is a good beat; totally devoid of instrumental timbre, beauty of tone, well-chosen tempos, etc., etc., etc.


You know, Michael Jackson could *sing* a fair bit too. I have no patience with music snobbery. As I get older , I appreceate *more* different kinds of music, not less. I would never have owned 'Thriller' when I was in my 20's (in the 80's). But now I do. (Still not a fan of Rachmaninoff, though...still prefer Bartok). I also come to it from a semi-pro musician's perspective. There are skills and talents involved in the making of all of these kinds of music. It comes down to what you like, or not...not some 'objective' idea of what is 'good' music or 'bad'.

[krabapple]

i'm talking about with the current speakers i have, i would need those/an amplifier(s). i have two RTi8s and to get equal sound, i would rather have equal speakers all the way around instead of different sound, for 5.1 music. but since that would be impossible for a centre channel, i'm willing to get a typical centre channel speaker. even with the two speakers i have now, i don't think i'm giving them enough power. but that's all way in the future.

At home, power needs depend mainly on how big your listening space is and how loud you intend to listen. Also, your subwoofer, assuming it's an active sub, has its own amp, and THAT is handling the load of the most-power-sucking part of the spectrum (the bass). Finally, room nulls can give the mistaken impression that your system is underpowered. It's unlikely you need a more powerful amp, though you might need a better sub. Or it may be you simply need to reconfigure your setup. Or adjust levels more carefully. I have no sense that you've ever used a sound level meter to balance the mains and sub, for example.

[krabapple]

You could be dead in 2-3 years,worry about it then. Hard to say what models will be out then. DVD could be dead.


DVD won't be dead...it will be Blu-ray or HD DVD, with lossless 'hi def' DTS or Dolby Digital sound.

If the industry has its way, that is.

[Johnd]

No, he hasn't. He's extrapolated a conclusion --but the logic of it is not established. He says he hadn't even *considered* bass management as a possibility before you mentioned it, now we're to believe he's exhausted all the possible causes? He hasn't detailed the results of various experiments as I outlined. E.g., he says he gets sub output -- under what conditions? Does it go away when he sets speakers to LARGE? What happens when other cables are disconnected? Did he try running the sub out directly into the sub? What are the settings for his non-SACD sources, in the AVR particularly? Are we comparing like to like here at all? Do Sony SACD players tend to have 'poor bass management' for SACD? Has anyone else reporte dthis problem for this model?

I'm giving up, because bryant doesn't seem to want to get into the sort of reporting detail that's required to diagnose the problem properly.

You know, Michael Jackson could *sing* a fair bit too. I have no patience with music snobbery. There are skills and talents involved in the making of all of these kinds of music. It comes down to what you like, or not...not some 'objective' idea of what is 'good' music or 'bad'.

krabapple, krabapple, krabapple; Last first.

It's not snobbery, it's fact. I was attempting to illustrate the difference between singers and "artists" vs. accomplished musicians and songwriters. If you don't recognize the difference, there's no sense in my trying to explain it. If you would take the time more to read more carefully, I wrote that I can and do appreciate Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson...for pop music, which is precisely what they do. It's not a pun, nor sarcasm. I meant exactly what I wrote. How do you read more into it?

And to address your plethora of questions written above, bryantm3 did, in fact, address most of these issues in his previous posts. Now, I'll admit, it's been a painstaking conglomeration of imprecise, unmethodical postings that both you and I have attempted to decipher. But he has answered that:
1) There is no difference between small and large settings;
2) He does get proper sub output, except in sacd;
3) That he used test tones and adjusted the volume levels for the different channels, sub x over set to 80Hz, all speakers off (on the receiver and and the player) except for fronts and sub, etc., etc., etc. The only contradiction I see is that in his 3-22-06 post @ 12:03 a.m., he writes that his speakers are set to large on his player, whilst set to small on his receiver, so I will say this one more time too, since he has never since written otherwise, then I'm toast:

SET SPEAKERS TO "SMALL" IN BOTH THE PLAYER AND THE RECEIVER!!!

So, krabapple, as have both you and I been straining to cure this "problem," please don't be so readily offended by my posts. Read them more carefully, and don't infer, and I'm sure you'll see it's not snobbery, just communication. Cheers.

[krabapple]

krabapple, krabapple, krabapple; Last first.

It's not snobbery, it's fact. I was attempting to illustrate the difference between singers and "artists" vs. accomplished musicians and songwriters. If you don't recognize the difference, there's no sense in my trying to explain it. If you would take the time more to read more carefully, I wrote that I can and do appreciate Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson...for pop music, which is precisely what they do. It's not a pun, nor sarcasm. I meant exactly what I wrote. How do you read more into it?

I'm not interested in your hierarchies, frankly. In my world, singers can be accomplished musicians, whether they write songs or not. And they can be artists (no quotes) without knowing a lick of formal music theory too. Your 'facts' are more like prejudices in the way you extend them into *judgements*.

And to address your plethora of questions written above, bryantm3 did, in fact, address most of these issues in his previous posts. Now, I'll admit, it's been a painstaking conglomeration of imprecise, unmethodical postings that both you and I have attempted to decipher. But he has answered that:
1) There is no difference between small and large settings;
2) He does get proper sub output, except in sacd;
3) That he used test tones and adjusted the volume levels for the different channels, sub x over set to 80Hz, all speakers off (on the receiver and and the player) except for fronts and sub, etc., etc., etc.


No, he has vaguely reported changing things, in who knows what order, and with who knows how rigorously. I'm willing to bet that if I could work on his setup in person for 20 minutes, I'd have his putative 'bass management problem' sorted out definitively. I suspect he's simply either playing the wrong part of an SACD, or has mismatched the levels of his AVR versus his player. It's possible his player's SACD subwoofer output is ~ 10 dB less than his system's Dolby Digital subwoofer output -- this has been known to be the case for some players, not a malfunction -- but we don't know anything for sure, really, and it can be compensated for if so. Or, he *could* simply play his two-channel SACDs through the dedicated analog l/r output, and let his receiver do bass management on it (in which case he should set speakers to LARGE, subwoofer OFF in the player again, on the off chance it's so poorly designed that the speaker /sub settings actually affect the dedicated two-channel analog out. AVR settings would be speakers SMALL, subwoofer ON of course.).

[Johnd]

Well that's just rude.

I thought a fellow Al DiMeola fan would concede the point...but apparently not. Somehow you are still misreading my post. No matter. I'll allow you to have the last word on most of this. Just allow me to state for the record that the bold capitals are meant for bryantm3 for his contradictory settings in his player and receiver; not for you. And forgive me if I've offended you in any way.

[shokhead]

He sure is getting a few pissed because he cant set it up. His Sony Has SACD so doesnt that mean it has to have BM?