Yamaha RX-Z9 -or- Anthem Statement D1

[Audio1]

I am considering changing my processor and I cannot decide between the Yamaha RX-Z9 or the Anthem Statement D1.

I realize that the Anthem is a pre-pro and the Yamaha is a receiver, but the Yamaha has such incredible processing and video performance that it is hard to overlook. The Anthem on the other hand has bass management with time alignment for the external analog SACD/DVDA inputs and upsamples all channels, even in DD/DTS. The anthem also has multiple bass management settings for music and video formats.

I would go for the Anthem except for the fact that the Yamaha does such a great job with the video and surround applications and since my tv only has one component input, this is hard to overlook.

Price is not a determining factor, so any feedback, experience or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You-

 

[frostbyte]

Apples vs Oranges

Hard question. Very different items and prices. I'd go with seperates personally. D1 is a monster machine, but spendy and requires an amp too. That much electronics requires some seriously nice speakers to get the money out of it.

 

[Audio1]

frostbyte,

I agree that the two machines are different. I own Anthem 5 channel amp already so that is not really an issue and I have a dealer that will give me a great deal on the D1.

For audio I am quite sure that the Anthem D1 is superior, however the video and surround processing in the Yamaha RX-Z9 is hard to argue with.

All in all a tough choice.

 

[frostbyte]

D1 or AV20

"the video and surround processing in the Yamaha RX-Z9 is hard to argue with"

How can the Yammie help the video processing? I would go directly to the TV if possible.

You may be able to get the AV20 I think it is for a good deal too. Since you already have an Anthem amp I would go with either Anthem processor. Both are very highly liked. If you didn't have an amp it would be much more expensive to go this route, but since you already have it take advantage of the benefit of seperates!

 

[Audio1]

frostbyte,

Thank you for the input. The video is important due to the fact that my tv only has one component input. Otherwise, I would definately agree with running directly to the tv. The Yamaha does upconversion with on-screen component menu display. That is why I felt the Yamaha may work well in my scenario.

Thank You

 

[RLA]

I only wished that Yamaha would have spent the extra $5 and put better
OP Amps in the Z-9 On a side note the processor in the Z-9 is in its own right is worth the $4500 price I will never ever in a million years have another Pre/Pro in my rack with that piece of .... CS 494xx series processors

 

[gene]

I only wished that Yamaha would have spent the extra $5 and put better

I partly agree here that most of the Japanese electronics I have reviewed use JRC opamps. While they are not bad opamps by any means, I would also prefer some good Burr Brown or Analog Devices that have lower noise floor.

I will never ever in a million years have another Pre/Pro in my rack with that piece of .... CS 494xx series processors

I also agree here, the Cirrus Logic processors from that era do have some issues, especially with the triple crossover as I noted in my Sherbourn PT-7000 review. My understanding is they have since then resolved these issues?

What have you noticed to be a problem with them?

The Anthem piece does look very promosing from the little info available at this time.

 

[Audio1]

Gene,

I actually have the brochure for the Anthem D1 and it looks impressive indeed. I do agree with your assessment of current higher end receivers in that they basically give you great processing with a free amp that you may choose to use or not use. The ease of operation is usually superior in the receiver product as well. I sometimes wonder if Denon and Yamaha were to make non amplified versions of their top models if that would change the way some people perceive these products.
After reading the specifications on the Anthem D1 I do not at all question its capability of producing stunning audio. However, I do know that the video circuitry in the Yamaha RX-Z9, especially if you only have one component input to utilize, is outstanding. It may also posess the most powerful surround processing of any piece.
There are always compromises that we must make, the problem is figuring out which ones are the most acceptable. Unfortunately for people that obsess over this stuff that is easier said than done.

Buddy

 

[gene]

Buddy;

This may sound funny, but if Yamaha/Denon for example where to offer their flagship receivers as processors only, they would save hardly any cost since they would incur less sales volume of units and thus part cost and labor would be higher. But yes, imagine how much more seriously these products would be taken by consumers if they didn't have amp sections.

BTW, one of the most entertaining things about the Z9 is the DSP modes. I absolutely love listening to concert videos with DSP processing. I know its not natural, but oh boy does it sound like the live show again!

 

[av_phile]

I can understand your dilmena. Both belong in the same price point. The Z9 really has impressive digital processing and input flexibility features. And maybe the user firendliness is another thing going for it. If there were no other AV preamp out there approaching these features, I'd get one myself, also as a preamp to my old Acurus amps.

But leaving the power amp unused, I'd just check the quiescent electrical power consumption. That may not be an issue for someone who can afford gears in these price points. But just the same, I wouldn't want surprises in my next electric bill.

I've always had this suspicion that receivers are an all-in-one boxfull of compromises. Perhaps the Z9 is an exception. Or any flagship receiver for that matter. But if a separate AV preamp can cost the same as the Z9, I'd start to wonder what compromises were made on the receiver. I hope it's just in the amp section.

A reciever such as a Z9 is such a complex hardware to say the least. And if Murphy were around as he usually lurks in such complex gears, and something goes wrong with such a monster, I would hate lifting such a hefty beast out of the rack, much less lugging it to the service center at the risk of getting herniated.

The Z9 DSP features can also be outstanding on their own. But I personally don't play with such added processing simulations as I find their artificiality equally outstanding. I prefer to hear exactly how the recording engineers and directors wanted their film or mixes heard at home. Nothing less nor more.

I guess what I am saying is, if the only caveat on the Anthem were its component video flexibility, I'd get a solution elsewhere, say, a component video selector. In fact, I know some enthusiasts who purposely leave out the video switching to another gear, totally outside the ground loop in their audio gears. They probably think video and audio are strange bedfellows in the noise department.

 

[RLA]

The Sherwood Newcastle P-965 uses the CS 49400
I have installed two for the same client and both went back to the distributor
The last one I received had a decoding problem I was standing in the clients home trying to get Sherwood's Tec support after 6 attempted phone calls someone finally answered in heavy broken English "There all on vacation
try back later" My mistake was letting my client take over the phone duty
from his speaker phone after the shock wore off my client and after a few choice words he indicated that he would prefer the P-965 vacate the premises We took care of him using velvet gloves but I was ready to sledge hammer the 965 and send it back in pieces Pre Amps with CS49xxx I will never install or offer another one to my clients

 

[Unregistered]

I'd go with the D1 over the Yamaha in a heartbeat, but that's based on personal experience with the AVM20. Anthem is notorious for offering upgrades, and if the performance (sound quality) of the AVM20 is any indication, the D1 should prove to be an absolute dream when it comes to sound quality.

I cannot imagine the Yamaha sounding as clean as the D1, but only an audition will prove that. The Yamaha is an excellent receiver with already excellent reviews, but I wouldn't put it in the same league as the D1, especially if down the road you end up mating it with a high-quality multi-channel amp to go with it, like the P5, or the proven Bryston 9BSST. A considerable amount of money to be sure, but it's relative. How much do you love H/T?? Would my wife allow it, I'd put what we have in the bedroom and spend another 30 or 40K on a brand new system for the family room.


Bottom line for me, I can't imagine the Yamaha being as upgradeable as the D1. The D1 should surely be obsolete long after the Yammy. The D1 also provides as much video switching prowess as the Yammy anyway.

Try em' both a lot before you buy. Either way, it's a lot of money, and you should audition until you're sure which one you prefer.

 

[steve]

Anthem D1 - Audioholics First Look

Audiohoilcs completed our initial first looks of the Anthem Statement D1 Preamplifier AV Processor / Tuner.

Upon our intial glance, it seems that the D1 is not currently shipping with an IEEE (i-Link). When we examined the spec sheet for the AKM 4395 DACs currently implemented in the D1 we also noticed that they do not support SACD or through i-Link. Since this forum is a comparison between the Anthem D1 and the Yamaha Z9, it's worth noting that the Z9 impliments more costly Burr Brown PCM 1792 multi bit differential DAC that are indeed capable of supporting multi channel DVD-A and SACD in their native formats therefore providing the highest resolution possible.

In followup conversations with Anthem they indicated that they do have plans on activating this interface soon. They seem to have valid and logical reasoning as to their selection of the AKM AK4395 Digital to Analog Converters. According to Anthem they plan on converting the DSD signal to PCM for handling of bass management and time alignment, upsampling the signal and utilizing the filtering incorporated for PCM. This is certainly a reasonable solution for handling DSD and minor sonic penalties (if any) are usually outweighed by the benefits of implementing proper bass management and time alignment.

Perhaps during the IEEE upgrade, Anthem may offer additional hardware upgrades to include HDMI and/or DVI and/or another proprietary digital interface to those who have purchased the unit. I'm sure their decision on not including it is partly based on the fact that there are still no set standards as to which connection type will make it long term. Why add more than you really need?

Anthem D1 - Audioholics First Look

If anyone hears about a DSD upgrade for the D1 please let us know. We will also stay in touch with Anthem to learn when they plan on such an upgrade and will report any latest information when available.

 

[expletive]

Anthem has stated that there will be an IEEE/HDMI upgrade for the D1 (and AVM30/AVM 20) by the end of the year. So while you will have to send the unit back to get IEEE, you will also get HDMI as well which is not available on the yamaha unit.

I don't know where they will fit all this, some speculation is that there will be some reconstruction of the current video panels (either component, composite, svideo, or all) to make room, or an external digital box that will connect to D1 into the one open slot on the back now.

There is some speculation that the reason why this digtal upgrade was not included on the current unit was so that the latest version of HDMI (1.2 or 2.0, i forget) could be included. They didnt want this to hold up getting the units out there while the spec is being finalised. I dont see this as an oversight at all. You have the option to wait and buy one with it later this year or enjoy all the unit has to offer now (which is a LOT). If you have not jumped onto the teh SACD/DVDA bandwagon yet, then there isnt much need for the IEEE/HDMI upgrade anyway, which may be the people who are buying it now.

While there has been some debate about this on other forums, my understanding is that DSD signals need to be converted PCM in order to perform TA and BM on them since you cant do this on 1 bit signals. If this is the case then there is no benefit to having DACs that can decode native DSD since i don't think you would want to convert back to DSD (if that is even possible) after being in PCM for BM and TA just so 1792 DACs can decode in DSD.

The Denon 5900 universal player has 1792 DACs and it must convert to PCM to apply BM or TA to SACD material.

I read the first look and it seems that the AKM DACs have a sonic benefit to the 1792 DACs according to the author:

"When carefully comparing the Anthem D1 SSP AK4395 DACs to the Burr Brown PCM 1792 DACs it is clear that other advantages to the Burr Brown design such as improved SNR, Dynamic Range,and Channel to Channel Isolation may prove to be an ancillary benefits of sqeezing out even more performance from this well designed product. The downside is these DACs are significantly more expensive and may translate to additional cost to the end user."

So if all this is accurate I think Anthem made the correct decision on their DACs.

The first online review i know is also out now but its on a competitor's website so i wont post the link here. IT is a rave review, which called the processor the "current final word in processors."

I do own a D1 and think it is an amazing piece. I don't want to come across as a fanboy because of what i have written here becuase these are the very things I used to make my decision. Personally i would get the D1. I dont know if youll have all the other assocaited gear to take advantage of a D1 and and a quality amp, but if you do i think youll be glad you went with the seperates.

John

 

[gene]

That is great news. We will definitely post an update when the information becomes available.

As for SACD, usually the DSD is handled by a true DSD DAC and then converted to PCM for BM and Time Alignment. I don't see anything in the AKM data sheet that states it supports DSD. Perhaps AKM will have an upgrade DAC that will support DSD and thus the Athem will be updgraded accordingly. We certainly hope this happens as the processor does look like it has potential.


As far as the final word in processors, I am afraid I don't agree, but we generally don't make blanket statements about any products no matter how good they are because there are always pros and cons to any product. Declaring a product to be "the best" or "the end all in processors" IMO is bad judgement. However, everyone has their favorites so if the end user feels this way, more power to them!

 

[expletive]

Wouldnt the DSP, not the DAC, convert the DSD signal to PCM in the D1? If this is the case then i dont see a reason to upgrade the DACs since you are in PCM for BM and TA already. The AKMs can then convert the PCM signal directly. Am I missing an important step somewhere?

Agreed on saying any one unit is the 'best' is a dangerous game. That being said it was a qualified statement which took other things into consideration (such as value) which I didnt include in my post.

Using SACD without BM or TA is a step backwards imo. So unless the Yamaha can do TA and BM without converting to PCM, i see no advantage over the D1.

John

 

[gene]

Yes the DSP will handle DSD, but the DAC has to be able to properly interface with it, along with the proper filtering. According to the AKM DAC’s data sheet for the 4385, they do not appear to support out of band noise filtering via an internal analog FIR filter for DSD. I also don’t see how the DAC interfaces with an external DSP for DSD decoding. Perhaps AKM has additional interface circuitry and DSD capable filter topologies/slopes to do the job, and/or they are convering DSD to PCM elsewhere, but Anthem doesn’t list it and data on AKM devices is a bit hard to come by.

It’s weird because their lower grade multichannel DAC’s show DSD interface support:
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4357/ak4357.html

This block diagram mentions DSD support but it’s not clear how it’s being done nor is it mentioned in the data sheet, Anthems literature or in any current product reviews to my knowledge.

http://www.akm.com/index.asp?cat=dvd

However, the AKM 4383 2CH DAC does explicitly state it has DSD interface support:
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4383/ak4383.html

The 4395 (used in the Anthem) does appear to be of higher quality, so perhaps Athem is waiting on AKM to release a higher performance DSD/PCM capable pin for pin compatible DAC before doing an upgrade. Also, since the 4383/4395 aren’t pin for pin compatible, that may be another reason for waiting on Anthems part. In any event I am sure they will find a pin for pin compatible work around, or perhaps they have a dual footprint layout to accommodate other devices, or a new daughter card that will be a simple plug in/out process for authorized dealers to handle the upgrade.

I did find this AKM App note (see page9) that briefly mentions an AKM 4396 DAC that handles PCM and DSD. So perhaps this will be the next upgrade path.

http://www.akm.com/AppsNotes/2004apps5.pdf

This looks like a great processor and I am confident Anthem has thought this all through. In the meantime, end users whom wish to adopt DVD-A/SACD formats can do so with a competent Universal player (such as Denon, Pioneer Elites for example) via the Anthems EXT analog inputs and take advantage of its bass management and time alignment (if your Universal player doesn't have such facilties). The sonic degradation (if any) is probably a small price to pay in the meantime to ensure the fomats are being handled correctly.

Sorry our first look article wasn't more detailed and we may entertain a complete review in the future, but right now our plate is full until early next year. With all of the requests to us to cover this product, we at least wanted to prepare something. Stay tuned...

 

[expletive]

Here's some additional information from an online reviewer who has spoken to Anthem:

You won't need to change the DACs for the firewire upgrade. Anthem has no plans on feeding the DACs native DSD, so that isn't a concern. Like every signal coming into the D1 that is digital, it will be upsampled etc, etc. The DSP will be doing full bass management and time alignment so the DSD signal will be converted to PCM before it ever reaches the DAC.

I talked with Anthem at the recent Definitive show and asked some questions about the future of the D1. He said that PLIIx will be implemented as soon as they get the code from Motorola. Before years end the processor will support firewire, HDMI V2 and video transcoding. He wasn't sure if the firewire/HDMI would be offered together or seperately (giving the end user the choice of what they want to support). The video transcoding will be a scaling engine as well as full conversion of any source to component output (and possibly more).

I am a little confused now.

John

 

[gene]

John;

I too am perplexed for the moment about this and I will try to call Anthem and AKM today to resolve. Kris Deering has already sent us a private and cordial email about this but I do prefer a direct answer from Athem or AKM.

If Anthem is converting DSD to PCM, they are a lone wolf in doing this in high end audio. Its not necessarily a bad thing especially since most processors do convert DSD to PCM for bass management and time alignment implementation at little or no loss in fidelity. In fact most DSD recordings are done using PCM equipment, but thats a whole other ball of wax that you can read up on at:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/CurrentFormatTrends.php

 

[expletive]

Sounds good.

John