Yamaha RX-V663 - Major Buyers Remorse

[Affejunge]

I have owned the Yamaha RX-V663 for about 4 months now. I have been really only using it for home theater and have been happy with it. Then about 2 weeks ago I found out about the receiver not passing BTB (and to think I thought Audioholics were wrong about my Samsung 46A650 being able to display BTB). It annoyed me that Yamaha was not upfront about this. And why would they do *any* processing on the video signal? (my previous yamaha, HTR-5760, did pass BTB over S-Video) but I figured no big deal, my HTPC is hooked up directly to my TV and anything broadcast or on dvd should not be affected.

Now, this is where I get really upset: So, I picked up a Turntable at a garage sale (Beogram 1700, $20!). The only receiver I have with a phono in is my very old Sony STR-DE835. Have it hooked to 2 JBL HLS 615. Vinyl sounds great (not sure I would say "better" than CD but definitely different and in a good way)

"Awesome," I think, cannot wait to hook this up down stairs to my HT setup with a sub. A friend lends me the Rotel 980 phono preamp, I hook it up, put on a little Neil Diamond...and....meh.... Sounds weak. The subs are putting out bass, but there is NO richness to it. My old Sony sounded much better.
"What the....", I check to make sure no digital processing is going on. The receiver is set to "Straight". I try "2 Channel"..no better... I hit "Pure Audio"

BAM! Music explodes out of my speakers... sound amazing! This is what I am looking for!! But something is missing.. ahh...no sound routed to the sub. So as a work around i have the pre-out L/R go to the sub's low pass filter.

I repeat this test with CDs...exact same experience. "Pure Audio" blows away what ever the Yamaha is doing with the signal. But why is it doing anything esp on "Straight"? And especially on CD where the PCM stream is coming in digitally over HDMI and my front speakers are set to "Large". (BTW "Pure Audio" will not pass 2.1, so, so much for having my Oppo-980H do bass management)

There is no way turning off some circuity should have this much of an effect. Why in the heck is the Yamaha messing with the signal? I have a bad feeling with the analog signal it is digitizing it, running it through dsp for low/high pass then converting back to analog... completely destroying the whole reason for analog!

Sorry for being so long winded, I am just really disappointed. I still think the V663 is decent for home theater but for audio it is a no go.

Now, do I get a new pre processor and use the Yamaha as just an amp (eyeing the new Outlaw 997 coming out) or chuck it all and look for something new?

Suggestions?

 

[soundhound]

wanna buy my HTR-5860? nothing wrong with it, I'm just upgrading.

 

[CAVU]

Why in the heck is the Yamaha messing with the signal? I have a bad feeling with the analog signal it is digitizing it, running it through dsp for low/high pass then converting back to analog.

Duh!!

The entire YPAO process is done in the digital domain ... levels, delay/phase, parametric equalization. How did you think it was done??!

When you switch to Pure Direct, all of that is defeated, leaving you with a raw/pure analog setup. Yamaha details all this in the manual and all other collateral materials.

If you have properly setup your system using YPAO, the result will be a balanced 'flat' sound. When you go PD you no longer have a balanced, 'flat' result. Of course the sound will be different!

What did you expect?!

 

[bandphan]

The BTB should not be an issue fr you at all BTW what display? As for YAPO it can help or it can hurt. Id suggest doing a little research on Bass Management ( just search this forum) and post your current settings, to see if there is anything glaring.

 

[soundhound]

I actually agree with bandphan. YPAO never set things right for me, I've always just done it manually for the best results. It sounds like some settings are wrong, so I agree you should post what you have so we can see if anything looks like it could be causing the problems you mention.

FWIW, when I switch from straight or even 2-channel to Pure Direct, there is actually very little change in the sound. Of course there's some difference, a little bit of a flattening as you would expect, etc. and there's also no sub with PD, but it's not a super dramatic change like you're describing. It sounds like a setting is wrong.

Btw, I don't think you mentioned what speakers you have, but they should probably in most cases be set to small. Could be wrong depending on your speakers, but that just jumped out at me.

 

[Affejunge]

Well I have been doing some messing around:

Currently I have it set for LFE/Low Bass out Front (ie no sub), then my pre outs R/L go to my sub. Speaker is set large all other speakers are set small.
Crossover at 120Hz. Now there is basically no difference between "Straight" and PD on CDs.

When I first had the issues, my fronts were set large, LFE/Low Bass - both, and crossover at 120Hz.

Speakers: Front: Axiom 22 v2, center: Axiom VP150 v2, rear: JBL E20, sub: JBL E250P.

CAVU - you say 'Duh' about analog getting digitized and the having bass management performed on it. To me this is unacceptable. Digitizing an analog signal defeats the purpose of feeding an analog signal. So, basically I am stuck for analog bass management? (wish I did not sell my ICBM 2 weeks ago!) Right now having my sub do the bass management is not ideal since my M22s are still getting a full range signal.

What receivers do bass management in the analog domain?

What does you all think about upgrading to a separate amp to help eliminate distortion on high volume levels?

Thanks

 

[bandphan]

Well I have been doing some messing around:

Currently I have it set for LFE/Low Bass out Front (ie no sub), then my pre outs R/L go to my sub. Speaker is set large all other speakers are set small.
Crossover at 120Hz. Now there is basically no difference between "Straight" and PD on CDs.

When I first had the issues, my fronts were set large, LFE/Low Bass - both, and crossover at 120Hz.

Speakers: Front: Axiom 22 v2, center: Axiom VP150 v2, rear: JBL E20, sub: JBL E250P.

CAVU - you say 'Duh' about analog getting digitized and the having bass management performed on it. To me this is unacceptable. Digitizing an analog signal defeats the purpose of feeding an analog signal. So, basically I am stuck for analog bass management? (wish I did not sell my ICBM 2 weeks ago!) Right now having my sub do the bass management is not ideal since my M22s are still getting a full range signal.

What receivers do bass management in the analog domain?

What does you all think about upgrading to a separate amp to help eliminate distortion on high volume levels?

Thanks

Can you just try to set all speakers to small, lfe to sub, and cross at 80hz to see if you like what you hear, if not we can get into some wordy posts that may not be necessarary.

 

[soundhound]

yeah, 120 x-over is a little ridiculous, imho - those speakers probably go down to 50-60hz at least. reset to 80hz with speakers on small like bandphan suggested. if your sub has a bypass, make sure to engage that also.

 

[Affejunge]

I always felt 120 was a bit high, but when I did the THX sound test (where you sweep from 20hz to 20Khz) it was the best point to have somewhat level sound all the way through (otherwise I would get a huge drop around 80-100hz)

That said, none of this answers the analog - digital - analog issue.

I was consider replacing my sub with the SVS PB10-NSD, but now I am re -evaluating this. The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus has a high pass out, so this would solve analog issues (set mains to large, let the sub do the cross over). That or get a phono stage with a built in crossover (does this exist?!)

Thanks again all.

 

[bandphan]

Why are you hung up on playing your mains full range? If you try the recomendation at 80hz then tweak from there you should be fine. Does your cd/dvd have bass management?

 

[MDS]

That said, none of this answers the analog - digital - analog issue.

How else would it do it? Bass management is done in the digital domain. Analog processing would require filters for every xover point it wanted to support. More physical circuitry equals more cost and it just isn't feasible.

Personally I've never understood the desire to keep everything in the analog domain. Many receivers offer a 'direct' or 'pure direct' (no video processing) mode for the analog purists. But, you can't have your cake and eat it too...if you want a pure analog signal from source to sink then you can't also expect to add bass management or other processing on top of it.

 

[Affejunge]

Agreed. But I want cake! I am really kicking myself for selling my ICBM. That did 6 channel bass management in the analog domain.

Bandphan: This issue is due to wanting to run my turntable and keep it analog. As for DVD/CD/SACD/DVD-A I am set. Due to the oppo, I can feed all that (over HDMI!) to the receiver digitally and have it do the correct bass management. I got rid of my ICBM because I did not need it to do bass management any more.. I just never counted on getting into vinyl. Life is funny sometimes.

My ideal solution is find a phono pre-amp that does bass management. Then I can use the the phono amp to my pre-ins and set my speakers back to small..yadda yadda... outlaw has a product that will work, but it is a bit overkill as I do not need the amplification: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html
Though the amp is better, if only 2 channel, over the yammy. BTW, I still need to buy a phono preamp as the one I am using now is borrowed.

But for now.. I will just use Pure Direct and switch cables in the back of the sub when I want to listen to records.. Does not solve the problem of a full range signal going to my mains... but music doesn't go much lower than 40hz anyway.

 

[davidtwotrees]

I am looking at this unit for a pre pro. When you start a thread with "major buyers remorse" googlers all over the internet will hit this thread and think something is wrong with this unit. There is nothing wrong with this unit! Most analog people I have met would rather die than use a home theatre receiver in conjunction with a turntable!
I would reccomend a Marantz 8b with some JBL Hartsfields and a Garrard 301 if you're looking for the analog experience.......correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[jostenmeat]

I am looking at this unit for a pre pro. When you start a thread with "major buyers remorse" googlers all over the internet will hit this thread and think something is wrong with this unit. There is nothing wrong with this unit! Most analog people I have met would rather die than use a home theatre receiver in conjunction with a turntable!
I would reccomend a Marantz 8b with some JBL Hartsfields and a Garrard 301 if you're looking for the analog experience.......correct me if I'm wrong!

david. Some people seem to despise Onkyo. That being said, for about $100 more, you can get the Onkyo 705 which I believe has the Audyssey Multi EQ XT.

I'm enamored with this room correction, and that's even after significantly treating my room. I like it so much, I started looking for 2 ch devices, to no avail of course (outside of SEQ).

I heartily believe that the XT in of itself is worth the $100 more.

The 705 can also matrix bitstreams of the advanced codecs, which the 663 cannot.

The 705 also has superior bass mgmt. Just FWIW, that's my rec at the price point.

edit: if you are also an Onkyo hater, I think the Denon equivalent is about $150 more.

edit #2: XT has at least 8x the filtering resolution of vanilla Multi EQ.

 

[davidtwotrees]

This was a very budget minded decision for me. Winter is coming and the economy is in the tank. Those two things mean I need to tighten the belt..........so for $365 at my door........this unit is hot. I like the dual subs, it has pre outs for my amp, and multichannel analogs if I want to use them.
I'm still really enjoying streaming Netflix and Pandora on my new sammy blu ray....the money I saved might be put to cable internet which would make the streaming really awse and have me ready for hd streaming content by the end of this year.

 

[WmAx]

There is no reason to believe that a properly functioning ADC-DAC process will audibly degrade the signal. In fact, today, even measurable degradation is only very slight on good hardware examples.

There have been many perceptual tests, using double blinded methodology, that demonstrate that the ADC-DAC process has no audible effect! It has been done on large scale basis with studio master tapes, using many trained audio professionals, with no one having statistically significant ability to determine difference past guessing. The same has been done for vinyl, on small scale, on what was considered very high end analog system. The same has been done on large scale, in a peer reviewed JAES article that studied the audible effect of running high res (SACD/DVD-A) sourced analog out through a CD format(44.1/16) ADC-DAC loop. The result was that NO audible effect occurred, and this was a quite ordinary/average loop. The ADC-DAC stages used in many receivers now are of absurdly high quality using high end chips just so they can use it as a selling point on their marketing brochures.

If you have a real audible effect, it is a result of improper settings(whether user error or forced system auto settings) or defective equipment. Assuming proper settings, the main result of having this ADC-DAC loop is psychological; just perceived difference, not real difference.

BTW, I have a 2 channel system of extraordinary reproduction ability in terms of realism in all aspects. I also have a rather higher end turntable on my system. My system is routed through an active DSP xover/processing system. It's a fully active 3 way system. This involves all signals from the pre-amp being input to the ADC of the DSP xover. I can tell you that absolutely no audible degradation occurs as a result of this; if it did, I would never use it! These speakers used to have passive crossovers(these speakers are of my own design), but I upgraded to full active digital some time back and the only changes I experienced were for the better, by far. My system is also in an extremely superb acoustic space; I have a substantial number of acoustical treatments at my disposal, so I can tell you that my room is very resolving, no question. For me to go 'full analog' would be a huge downgrade in sound quality.

-Chris