Yamaha 1080P/SACD/DVD Audio via HDMI

[troytn]

A nice match for the upcoming Z11 receiver:

Yamaha Introduces High-Performance DVD Players With 1080p HDMI Output Plus DVD-Audio And SA-CD Playback

Top-of-the-Line Universal DVD Player and Super Audio CD/DVD Changer Ideal for High-End Custom Installations


Yamaha introduced the DVD-S1800 universal DVD player and the DVD-C961 Super Audio CD/DVD-Audio Changer. Both feature a host of advanced features and capabilities designed to maximize the performance of high-end home theater installations. Ideal for those who demand the ultimate in video and audio realism, the DVD-S1800 and DVD-C961 not only offer 1080p video output via HDMI, but also support DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD playback. Both units will be on exhibit at Yamaha's CEDIA 2007 booth (#450).

The DVD-S1800 DVD player and DVD-C961 changer both utilize industry-leading video processing technologies to deliver remarkable performance. In addition to upconverting video to 1080p, the units can also output 480p, 576p, 720p and 1080i signals, all over a pure digital HDMI connection. To ensure the highest possible video quality even through their analog outputs, the models also feature a 216MHz/12-bit high-performance video DAC. Noise Shaped Video(TM) technology from Analog Devices uses oversampling and sophisticated techniques such as multi-bit sigma-delta processing and bit-shuffling to relocate converter noise to a part of the spectrum where it can be removed by an analog filter. This improves signal accuracy, allowing signals to be displayed at much higher resolutions.

For optimal viewing of native 4:3 images on widescreen 16:9 sets, the DVD-S1800 has a standard Pillar Box mode, as well as a Non-Linear Stretch option, which enlarges a 4:3 picture with minimum distortion by trimming the top and bottom to make it more like a 16:9 picture. The DVD-S1800 also offers progressive scanning of both NTSC and PAL signals to provide a smooth, film-like image. Both the DVD-S1800 and DVD-C961 offer Faroudja DCDi(TM) processing, Motion Adaptive Noise Reduction, Cross Color Suppression and TrueLife Enhancer.

The DVD-S1800 and DVD-C961 are replete with audiophile features. Compatible with both DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD, the unit enables listeners to experience the most realistic and lifelike multi-channel audio available. The DVD-S1800 has four two-channel Burr Brown 192kHz/24-bit DACs for the stereo and 5.1-channel output sections to provide absolute sonic transparency. The DVD-C961's 192kHz/24-bit DACs deliver sound quality that surpasses players costing significantly more. Both models feature Audio Direct mode that removes video circuitry from the signal path to eliminate any chance of it affecting sound quality. In this mode, front-panel illumination is also switched off to prevent interference from the LCD.

The DVD-S1800 integrates bass management processing to ensure proper routing of bass frequencies for ideal DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD performance via multi-speaker home theater systems. For regular two-channel stereo CDs, bass frequencies are routed to the subwoofer, so users can enjoy "2.1-channel” sound with more powerful bass.

To accommodate a wide range of personal media collections, the DVD-S1800 and DVD-C961 are capable of playing compressed formats including MP3 and WMA audio files, JPEG image files and DivX® video files. The unit's streamlined and intuitive GUI makes it quick and easy to navigate all types of media.

The DVD-C961 5-disc changer features PlayXchange which enables users to change DVDs or CDs while the current one continues to play, so there is no interruption to the entertainment experience. When playback is stopped in the PlayXchange mode, the tray opens all the way so that all five discs can be changed at once. It also incorporates a RS-232C interface so it can be controlled by a computer in a custom installation.

The DVD-S1800 and DVD-C961 are perfect matches for Yamaha AV receivers. The DVD-S1800's aluminum front panel and attractive exterior complements the look of the RX-V3800 and RX-V1800 digital AV receivers the company is also introducing at CEDIA. Its HDMI terminals also allow connection via one cable for high-level signal transmission, ensuring a perfectly matched audio/video system. The DVD-C961 is compatible with the SCENE customizable pre-set listening mode, which is featured in the company's RX-V861 and RX-V661 receivers.

Both the DVD-S1800 and DVD-C961 will be available in August for a suggested retail price of $449.95 each.

 

[j_garcia]

Nobody needs a high performance top shelf DVD player anymore. It looks like they paid attention to the needs of consumers but maybe just a little late to the game...

 

[rick58]

Differences Between Yamaha S1800 and S1700

What are the differences between the DVD-S1800 and the DVD-S1700? I checked the Yamaha website and compared both players. I can't see any differences...even the weight is identical. The picture for the DVD-S1800 looks as if it was altered to change "1700" to "1800"!

Rick

 

[jcPanny]

Oppo Digital DVD players

Check out the Oppo Digital DVD players. Even the lower end DV970 ($150) will do SACD and DVD-A over HDMI. The higher end DV981 model ($220) does this and adds Faroudja processing for half the cost of the new Yamaha.

If you want to spend $250 or more, look for an HD-DVD or BluRay player and get the Oppo DV970 or DV980 for SACD and DVD-A playback. I have the 970 and use it to upscale DVDs but have not been compeled to try the DVD-A and SACD features.

 

[shokhead]

If the 961 sends the SACD from the HDMI, does the player or receiver do the BM?

 

[Pyrrho]

If the 961 sends the SACD from the HDMI, does the player or receiver do the BM?

Anything sent via HDMI is digital, so the conversion to analog will be done in the receiver (or whatever the player is hooked up to, such as a preamp/processor). This means, if you are going to use that connection, having expensive D/A converters in the player are a waste.

Given the price of the Oppo players, unless one wants a changer (like the Yamaha DVD-C961), these new releases from Yamaha seem like they are overpriced. The Oppo DV-981HD provides well implemented DCDi by Faroudja for $229, and for $399 you can get supposedly state-of-the-art upconversion with the new Oppo DV-983H. Both play SACD, DVD-Audio, and several other formats of audio/video, too numerous for me to bother listing. Why pay more and get less with Yamaha? But, perhaps, Yamaha has made something better than the Oppo players, though that is extremely unlikely. But we can wait for reviews from those who actually measure performance and then we will know if these are worth considering or not.

 

[shokhead]

So is that good, bad or indifferent if the SACD signal is sent through the HDMI or does it depend on the receiver?

 

[Pyrrho]

So is that good, bad or indifferent if the SACD signal is sent through the HDMI or does it depend on the receiver?

It depends. It is certainly more convenient to use the digital connection, assuming one has the appropriate equipment that can handle such a connection. Some SACD players convert the DSD to PCM for sending through the HDMI, but some also convert to PCM for internal processing when using the analog output anyway. It should make no audible difference doing this, but those who imagine that SACD is superior to DVD-Audio are likely to object to the conversion. Certainly, other than convenience of managing the signal, there is no advantage to convert between these formats of digital.

As for whether it will make an audible difference to use the analog or HDMI connections, in most cases, people will not be able to conveniently level match the signals and therefore will not be able to conduct anything approaching a fair listening for themselves. Theoretically, what you would want to do is use the device with the best D/A convertors, though if the receiver converts the analog input to digital for processing, one would not be eliminating the receiver's converters from the signal, and one might as well use the HDMI connection, even if the converters were better in the player.

If you are dealing with good equipment, you will not be able to hear a difference between the analog and the digital connection, assuming that you properly level matched the signals for the comparison, and assuming that you do not apply different processing to them.

So, I would suggest that, in most cases, it would be best to just use the HDMI, as it is likely to be easier. You can, of course, try both, and do whichever you prefer, though, as I already have said, without properly level matching the two different signals, you will not be able to do a proper listening comparison anyway, so there generally won't be much point in trying both.

Also, from reading various professional reviews online (in which measurements were made), if one is using a cheap SACD player, probably the receiver will have better D/A conversion, and better analog circuits, so using the HDMI connection in such a case would be best.

I have a fairly well regarded SACD player, but if it had the HDMI connection, I would use it.

 

[dobyblue]

those who imagine that SACD is superior to DVD-Audio are likely to object to the conversion

You think the difference between 24/48 DVD-A tracks and SACD is imaginary? I have compared the 24/48 DVD-A track of NIN's TDS with the SACD and I find the SACD to be more sonically pleasing.

 

[shokhead]

The Yamaha, C961 converts the SACD to PCM before outputting to HDMI. Then the receiver will do the BM. I still read PCM is right, no DSD is right. Papers written, no your wrong. It screws me up trying to match new equipment. I'm leaning to the 961 ecause of the SACD from HDMI to a Onkyo 805 but i don't have a problem using the 6 analogs. But using the receivers BM will almost always be a better way to go the what the players have you use. So do i use the HDMI and the receivers BM for SACD or the analogs and the players BM?

 

[shokhead]

You think the difference between 24/48 DVD-A tracks and SACD is imaginary? I have compared the 24/48 DVD-A track of NIN's TDS with the SACD and I find the SACD to be more sonically pleasing.

I find the SACD lacking bass and DVD-A sounding fuller.{this is both in surround}

 

[Pyrrho]

You think the difference between 24/48 DVD-A tracks and SACD is imaginary? I have compared the 24/48 DVD-A track of NIN's TDS with the SACD and I find the SACD to be more sonically pleasing.

It is very rash to judge a format based upon one release. There is generally no way of knowing what sorts of processing differences may have been done for different versions of an album released in various formats. Either one can be made to sound bad, if those making it wish to do so. And either one could be bungled by accident. Or it could be that two mixes are simply done by different sound engineers with different taste.

There are plenty of people who argue SACD is better than DVD-A, and plenty who argue that DVD-A is better than SACD; just do a quick search if you want to read that sort of thing. Regardless of the technical merits of either format, the mix and mastering of the particular disc is going to matter far more to the end result than whether the disc is a DVD-A or SACD.

I mentioned the conversion issue, by the way, as some people do care about it, and therefore it is good to know that not all HDMI signals from different SACD players are identical. (Not to mention, as I said previously, "Certainly, other than convenience of managing the signal, there is no advantage to convert between these formats of digital." Thus, from a sound quality standpoint, it is not an advantage to convert DSD to PCM for output via HDMI.) From what I have read, most players convert to PCM, and only a few send out DSD. If that is a matter that one cares about, it will be something to look for in individual players (as well as in individual receivers, as some cannot deal with DSD). It is good to remember that there are different HDMI specifications (i.e., 1.1, 1.2, etc.), and not everything with an HDMI connection is going to be able to do everything that other things with HDMI connections can do.

So, those who imagine it matters, may avoid SACD players that do the conversion. Those who imagine that it does not matter, can simply ignore such considerations. To determine whether it actually makes a difference to what one can hear, a level-matched double-blind listening test with appropriate equipment would need to be conducted. As far as I know, no one has demonstrated an ability to tell the difference, but if you have any references for someone who can, please post them.

 

[Pyrrho]

The Yamaha, C961 converts the SACD to PCM before outputting to HDMI. Then the receiver will do the BM. I still read PCM is right, no DSD is right. Papers written, no your wrong. It screws me up trying to match new equipment. I'm leaning to the 961 ecause of the SACD from HDMI to a Onkyo 805 but i don't have a problem using the 6 analogs. But using the receivers BM will almost always be a better way to go the what the players have you use. So do i use the HDMI and the receivers BM for SACD or the analogs and the players BM?

With those units, you can use either connection and it should be fine. If you are a hater of PCM (e.g., CD, DVD-A, etc.), then you may want to use the analog connections, assuming that the Yamaha player does not convert to PCM in its internal processing of the signal for analog output (I have not read about this model in enough detail to know what it does for its analog output). For convenience, the HDMI connection is best. Probably, you will not be able to hear any difference between the analog and HDMI, if you listened to both level-matched and "blind". If I had those two units, I would probably just use the HDMI and be done with it.

If you are concerned about the conversion from DSD to PCM, if you don't need a changer, you might want to consider the Oppo DV-980H for $169. It outputs SACD via HDMI in DSD. It is also supposed to be a pretty good DVD player, and it plays DVD-A as well.

 

[shokhead]

I do want a changer. Maybe the Yamaha C961 or the Denon 2845ci, not sure yet.

 

[Pyrrho]

I do want a changer. Maybe the Yamaha C961 or the Denon 2845ci, not sure yet.

If you can find one in a store, you might want to play with it a bit before buying it. I believe that the DVD-C961 is the replacement for the DVD-C950, which, I believe, is same as the DVD-C750 except that the DVD-C950 has an HDMI output and appropriate additional video processing (the DVD-C750 does not have HDMI; its best video output is progressive component). I own the Yamaha DVD-C750. It is a decent DVD player, and it sounds very good. I am happy with its SACD and DVD-A performance (though I am looking to buy an upconverting DVD player now that I have a HDTV). Its bass management leaves something to be desired (only one crossover frequency, and that is too high), and it has the slowest transport of any DVD player I have ever owned. I typically push the open button, and then go get the disc that I want to put in it. If I am not overly fast at walking across my room and selecting the disc, it will be open by the time I am ready to put a disc in it. Then, once closing the drawer, it takes a long time to load the disc. It also has an unintuitive setup menu, which, thankfully, once set up properly, can be left alone until you replace some equipment or decide you want something to work differently. However, it performs well, and given what I paid for it, I do not regret getting it. I also knew it was slow before buying it.

Now, if the DVD-961 has the same shortcomings (except with better video and a better connection), then the bass management will not be a problem if you use the digital connection, as that will be taken care of in your receiver. And that means you have less to do in the setup menu, so if it were as bad as the menu in mine, it would be less of an annoyance. But before buying it, I would recommend finding out about its load time, if you are impatient for equipment to do things that you tell it to do. Maybe Yamaha has improved this, or maybe not. If you cannot find one locally, I suppose you might be able to find out about load times and such by reading reviews, when they come out. As for bass management crossover frequencies and information on the menu, you might want to download an owner's manual from Yamaha's web site and see if it meets your needs.

Even with the shortcomings of my player, it is nice having an SACD changer. Yamaha knows how to make a good sounding unit. It is also better at playing defective discs than any other DVD player I have owned, though it is also the most expensive one I have owned. If the DVD-C961 were not so expensive, I would consider replacing my DVD-C750 with it. But for me, I think I will be better off buying an Oppo for playing DVDs, and keep my DVD-C750 for use as an SACD changer.

 

[shokhead]

I'll have to check on the BM of the Denon 2845ci$269{i think it's fixed at 80} and the Marantz 6001.$299{i bet it's 80 also}
http://us.marantz.com/Products/2047.asp
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3420.asp