XP is dead: No more dodging the Vista bullet?

Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
BTW the new adaware 2009 free is much improved over previous years.
Do you mean 2008? A search for 'adaware 2009 free' Got me a free scan that pulled up 19 items that they wanted $37 to remove. Using Ad-Aware 2008 Free right afterwards pulled up 19 items that it just reoved for free. :rolleyes:
I guess I'm just looking to get the most up to date free version possible. ;)
 
G

gus6464

Audioholic Samurai
Do you mean 2008? A search for 'adaware 2009 free' Got me a free scan that pulled up 19 items that they wanted $37 to remove. Using Ad-Aware 2008 Free right afterwards pulled up 19 items that it just reoved for free. :rolleyes:
I guess I'm just looking to get the most up to date free version possible. ;)
Yes sorry I misread the article from pcmag. The new is 2008 and not 2009. I haven't used adaware for years because of lavasoft starting to add more and more bloat.
 
No way. Dead wrong.
You are misconstruing my statement to imply instability.

Windows Me was a stopgap OS between Windows 98 and Windows XP.

Windows Vista is a stopgap OS between Windows XP and Windows 7. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact based on its release date and the now-expected mid-2009 release date of Windows 7. Remember, Vista just came out in 2007. If everything goes according to plan, Vista will have a shelf life just ~6 months longer than Me.

I'm not saying Vista stinks. It's just not a long-term OS like XP was and Windows 7 will (likely) be...
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
Sorry but I don't think that's even entirely accurate/fair. I suspect Windows 7 has been pushed up so early primarily because of the bad press on Vista and MS would just like to move on in name (I have no idea if Windows 7 is drastically different technology or not, it was supposed to be originally) if not as significantly in terms of technology. Vista has been a big hassle for MS because of public perception, and unfortunately for MS that's as or more important than the technical truth of the situation.

No doubt the fabled epic stability and performance of Mac OSX has helped their sales along with other bits of popular but false or exaggerated information. I use OSX and am not speaking negatively of it, but I never have found it to be much different on the whole than Windows. Different problems, less vulnerability in certain ways, but neither OS is perfect (is there such a thing, really?)
 
CaliHwyPatrol

CaliHwyPatrol

Audioholic Chief
I don't see why people are "dodging" the Vista bullet in the first place... It's a better OS than XP. Why wouldn't you want to have the better one?
 
Don't be sorry, we're just having a discussion.

I can't (won't) argue with someone who thinks Vista is great, and I see your point about the possibility that MS pushed up Windows 7 due to bad publicity. What I don't think is fair is to whitewash all the mistakes they made along the way. Security is overblown - Hitting OK on 3 popup security windows every 5 minutes should not be standard practice (yes I'm exaggerating). Mac OS X (I am NOT an Apple kool-aid drinker) only has one version. Vista has FIVE. From the get-go they confused the consumer and became their own worst enemy.

It all comes down to the RAM requirements (unlikely to change, but now it's two years later which will help), video card/hardware requirements (same deal), compatibility and driver issues, boot time, and the overbearing security warnings. Lots of people just don't like the OS (and I only touched on some of the reasons).

I PROMISE you that Dell did not resurrect XP because of some Internet Blog posts about Vista or simple bad reputation. People really do avoid that OS for good reason. People WANT updates. They WANT the newest thing. So why do they hate MS' new OS so much? Vista is a screw-up OS of major proportions and Windows 7 should be far better.


But even with all that my only initial comparison to Me was based on shelf life. This stands regardless of the reasons why its being replaced so soon (which I think you're being overly generous in your assessment). Now that you've caused me to go down memory lane, I'll extend that and say that Vista will probably end up being one of the biggest marketing failures of Microsoft ever. As an app I'm sure it's helped progress them the Windows 7, so that's not bad, but in terms of execution: FAIL.

Carry on...
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
I can't (won't) argue with someone who thinks Vista is great, and I see your point about the possibility that MS pushed up Windows 7 due to bad publicity. What I don't think is fair is to whitewash all the mistakes they made along the way. Security is overblown - Hitting OK on 3 popup security windows every 5 minutes should not be standard practice (yes I'm exaggerating). Mac OS X (I am NOT an Apple kool-aid drinker) only has one version. Vista has FIVE. From the get-go they confused the consumer and became their own worst enemy.
You seem to think I'm a blinded Vista fanboy don't you? Well, I'm not. I'm not saying it's an amazing operating system that's vastly superior to XP in all ways. My overall opinion is that it is a good/fine operating system on the level with XP and OSX with it's own advantages and disadvantages.

The security system does actually help vs XP and you are vastly exaggerating how often you'd see the UAC popup. I haven't kept direct track but I'd say I see it may be once a week on my desktop.

I do agree that the number of versions of Vista has made things a bit of a confusing mess, however. I also think Microsoft did a poor job of handling development for third party support prior to the OS release (and this is where the majorty of the bad reputation has come from).

It all comes down to the RAM requirements (unlikely to change, but now it's two years later which will help), video card/hardware requirements (same deal), compatibility and driver issues, boot time, and the overbearing security warnings. Lots of people just don't like the OS (and I only touched on some of the reasons).
To be fair most major OS updates have put heavier strain on the RAM and hardware in general. As mentioned compatibility and driver issues are realistically the most significant flaw Vista faced, as well as a community of PC users that were comfortable with the existing design language of Windows and are uncomfortable with the changes. I've found Vista boot times largely equivalent to those of XP as well, as have many other people I know.

I PROMISE you that Dell did not resurrect XP because of some Internet Blog posts about Vista or simple bad reputation. People really do avoid that OS for good reason. People WANT updates. They WANT the newest thing. So why do they hate MS' new OS so much? Vista is a screw-up OS of major proportions and Windows 7 should be far better
Given the sheer amount of misinformation on Vista (OMG it's eating my RAM... yes that's called caching and it's good) and the amount of people hating/fearing/disliking it who had never used it I don't agree that the reason behind Dell going back to XP does not include bad reputation. Any decent product so marred by reputation alone can kill its marketability, just as any mostly terrible and overpriced product can be sold almost on misguided reputation alone (like Bose).

But even with all that my only initial comparison to Me was based on shelf life. This stands regardless of the reasons why its being replaced so soon (which I think you're being overly generous in your assessment). Now that you've caused me to go down memory lane, I'll extend that and say that Vista will probably end up being one of the biggest marketing failures of Microsoft ever. As an app I'm sure it's helped progress them the Windows 7, so that's not bad, but in terms of execution: FAIL.
I cannot disagree that this has and will be a big black eye for MS for a long time but it sounds to me like inexperience with the OS and thus the situation has led you to a rather simplistic analysis of the situation.

Vista has, I think, suffered not just a technical war
  • OEMs shipping early vista systems on insufficient hardware (2GB RAM at the time Vista was released was becoming common on many systems, but there were still brand new Vista systems shipping with 512 or 1GB RAM both of which are insufficient in my opinion for running XP or OSX smoothly, regardless of Vista)
  • OEMs (and other companies) providing poor drivers and unstable supporting applications (heavily affected Vista for the first 3-4 months on OEMs and a little longer for some third party drivers)
  • slow third party correction of those problems
  • a somewhat obnoxious security system although you mostly only see it when you're first installing all the software on a system
  • Confusing number of OS options (the different types that are available)
(among other things, like sleep and transfer speed issues, etc) but a war of perception
  • misunderstood RAM handling system
  • Assumption that the core OS itself is incapable of functioning correctly (yes you see this a lot) when the initial and largely resolved issue with third party support were largely to blame. Now it's not a whole lot different than XP
  • Assumption that UAC will pop up every day whenever you do almost anything
(again, among other things)

I'm curious how much you've used Vista or what your experience with it is. Most of your points are the rather typical talking points I've heard mostly from people with little to no experience with it (or bad OEM system experience during the first few months of Vista's release). As I mentioned Vista is far from my sole OS. I own and use computers with Vista, XP, OSX and Ubuntu so I'm trying to provide you with as balanced analysis of the problems with Vista as I can. On the whole I like Vista as well as any of them but I can point out flaws in it just like I can the rest of them.

I do hope Microsoft learns from their mistakes with Vista however. On both fronts (technical and and perceptual). I don't fully know why 3rd party drivers had so many problems (but I have suspicions based on certain core changes in Vista vs previous operating systems), but at the same time MS would do well to take some lessons from what effective advertising has done to hurt them, and instead use their own advertising to promote Windows 7.
 
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Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Microsoft is notorious for releasing a product before it's ready for prime time. When I fork over $200+ for software, I have no intentions of being a beta tester.

There's that saying, "first impressions are lasting impressions and you only have one chance to make a first impression".

Microsoft should take note.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
After using vista for 3 weeks now I am going to have to agree with jonnythan and emorphien on this. Vista can be a very stable and speedy OS if installed correctly. I only have 2gb of ram on this machine and vista is running just as fast as XP did. When it comes to the consumer machines the bloatware they preinstall is what's really hurting vista's reputation and performance.

I also have been trying out ESET NOD32 antivirus 64bit and I must say it is absolutely superb. It only uses 10mb of ram to run and is extremely fast in scanning. When my trial ends up I will be subscribing to the retail version. It's spyware detection isn't as good as Kaspersky but that's what spybot and adaware is for. BTW the new adaware 2009 free is much improved over previous years.
My new E6500 is being shipped with Vista 64, and I get the downgrade xp disks so I am happy with that, but I am willing to give it a shot.... Upon playing with a few computers, I found that 64 bit was much faster and responsive. I will see how it comes shipped, but if its loaded up with crap from the get go, I will dump it and reload to reduce the bloat. I will be getting an additional 2 gb ram for 4 in total, so we'll see how it all goes...

I'm also glad to hear that Nod32 64bit is working nicely, I would have no other antivirus running on any of my servers/computers... It has always worked flawless for me... Thanks for the heads up...
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Okay, but don't leave me hangin'. :) When is it coming out?
No different then when they delayed Vista, or even XP for that matter...

I have always relied on a good clean quality load of XP for my servers which would run reliably for over a month without me even thinking about looking at them.... :) They just sat in the basement quietly doing their job in the background for me...

I am only using this laptop for day to day uses, and have no intention of upgrading my servers to Vista, until I have absolutely no choice, as I rarely use them, and by that time to me they will be akin to the computers they used to launch Apollo missions... :)
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
Microsoft is notorious for releasing a product before it's ready for prime time. When I fork over $200+ for software, I have no intentions of being a beta tester.

There's that saying, "first impressions are lasting impressions and you only have one chance to make a first impression".

Microsoft should take note.
I hate that practice as well and unfortunately it's become more and more common for software developers to do that.

Leopard (which I have not updated to) supposedly had a range of problems, there's usually quirks throughout every other new OS, and EA is notorious for dumping games out there and letting customers download a myriad of patches to maybe fix the game.

Overall it just seems to be happening more and more often.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Overall it just seems to be happening more and more often.
Perhaps companies are trying to get a concept to the market before their competitors do, so they rush it out the door to get the credit knowing that they'll need to troubleshoot and fix it afterwards? I'm sure that there are various reasons for it, though. I'm not a fan of that either, but I'm no longer an early adopter of new software. For example, I just got Vista a couple of months ago.
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
Normally I wouldn't adopt an operating system early myself. With Windows, I was very slow to move from 2k to XP for example and the move from XP to Vista as soon as it was out was very unusual for me.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Yes I know it's wishful thinking. When it comes to operating systems, I still think that Digital's VMS OS was the best since I found it very user friendly. Back when Unix was running VMS out the door, I was a big anti-Unix person too. Now I love Unix-based systems. I'm getting much older now and like "change" even less today than I did 20 years ago.
FINALLY a VMS fan, thank you, I agree so much.....
Still remember people talking about a bug in VMS that occurred with the Virtual memory handling if the system was up for more than 6 years without rebooting..... he he he he
How many operating systems can go for 6 years without rebooting?
VMS is best OS ever, period.

As a server developer, still using Windows Server 2003, also on my laptop, most stable windows ever..... but using it as little as possible.....

Coz now I've switched to Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop on my Dell laptop, and absolutely all H/W works straight out of the box, and most things work better than with any kind of Windows version.

Other than that I would recommend Asus Eee with "eee xUbuntu" Nice to bring on holidays, with all your music collection on an external usb drive :))))) had so much fun with this little PC

Harald N
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
How do you like Suse compared to say Ubuntu or other distros?
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
How do you like Suse compared to say Ubuntu or other distros?
The choice of Suse Enterprise Desktop is a strategic move....
I do not have that much experience in Linux, but trying really hard now to get really serious into things, and picked this because there are some major companies using Suse, and being a professional IT consultant...... well...........

There are two things I really like about Suse Enterprise.... this may be different to OpenSUSE, as I have not tried OpenSUSE extensively:

1. To my experience, all H/W works right out of the box, including WLAN and bluetooth and all other things that may be in a laptop, that's definitely not the case with Ubuntu, with much tweaking with drivers and ndiswrapper and more...

2. Menu system in Suse, really really like this..... :))

Package system works better in Ubuntu, easier to get S/W working in Ubuntu, at least that's my experience........ I like Ubuntu very much and I run it on my small Asus eee subnotebook where it works very very very well, so what can I say....

If you can get WLAN working with Ubuntu it will always be a very safe choice...... didn't try latest 8.04 Ubuntu distro on my laptop, and I haven't had much time for this right now because I'm just to busy......

-Harald N
 
G

gus6464

Audioholic Samurai
How do you like Suse compared to say Ubuntu or other distros?
Suse and Ubuntu are just two very different flavors of linux to really compare. You really have to ask yourself if you like the debian way or the red hat way. As far as hardware detection ubuntu is the best right now and it doesn't look like it's changing any time soon. Opensuse 11 is a good step in the right direction for novell as they screwed up v. 10 and 9.

Also when it comes to trying out distros you should really decide by seeing if you want to use KDE or GNOME. While Ubuntu has KDE in the form of Kubuntu, the OS was really designed with gnome in mind. On the other hand Opensuse and Fedora are all about KDE. Another good flavor of ubuntu to run on an older machine is Xubuntu with XFCE.

Then for advanced users you have Slackware and Gentoo. Slackware is just like gentoo in the form of customization but it's a lot easier to work with. Although there is a flavor of gentoo called Sabayon which is a lot like ubuntu in the form it makes things easier and hardware detection is also quite good.

There are 4 ways to do Linux:
Debian way
Red Hat way
Slackware way
Gentoo way

Every other distro out there will be based on one of these main four. Although none of them have yet to come close to being as good as Debian when it comes to package management. In fact for the most part the other try have tried to emulate debian when it comes to package management. Gentoo has emerge, Red Hat flavors have yum, and Slackware has slapt-get.
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
Thanks for the input guys. I realize they're very different, I've used Ubuntu the most but also other systems (not Debian). I have had some brief time with some flavor of SUSE but I can't remember which but I believe there are some significant differences between SUSE and openSUSE.

I haven't spent a lot of time bouncing around different flavors of Linux in a couple years though but I haven't taken the time to fix a few problems the Ubuntu install I have running either.
 
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