boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
I've had my eye out for a pair of quality bookshelf speakers in the $300-$500 range. I've read great thigns about the JBL Studio L Series and currently, a pair of L830's are going for about $295! Would getting these be a worthy upgrade from the JBL Venue Series Arena's? For some reason, I was never totally satisified with the arena's, they sound overly bright and at times too harsh for music- which is my primary focus. Anyone heard the L830's and can give some input? They normally run for $750.00/pair. Thanks!
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I thought the same thing about the Studio series. Overall, I thought they were decent performers, but they did have some sizzle at the top end.

There are plenty of choices, and the # of threads on this type of budget is enormous. There are probably hundreds of threads for $300, hundreds of threads for $350... for $400... for $450 ..... for $500....

Some good ID brands out there, the one that I'm familiar with being Ascend, and I give them a thumbs up.

Or perhaps some NRC-influenced value rich companies like PSB, Paradigm, Energy, Infinity, etc.

Hard to go too wrong.
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
I thought the same thing about the Studio series. Overall, I thought they were decent performers, but they did have some sizzle at the top end.

There are plenty of choices, and the # of threads on this type of budget is enormous. There are probably hundreds of threads for $300, hundreds of threads for $350... for $400... for $450 ..... for $500....

Some good ID brands out there, the one that I'm familiar with being Ascend, and I give them a thumbs up.

Or perhaps some NRC-influenced value rich companies like PSB, Paradigm, Energy, Infinity, etc.

Hard to go too wrong.
Thanks for the quick reply! The worst thing would be to have a high frequency transducer that pierces the ear after prolonged periods of listening. That was the one thing that bothered me most about the Venue Arena's, violin strings sounded too thin and far too harsh to be enjoyable, however that's just my personal opinion. I have looked into Ascend Acoustics and was quite intrigued by the Sierra 1's; though that's out of my price range at this point. So the search continues...
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
You're welcome. As for Ascend, the 170SE is within budget, as are the 340s.

A very, very common rec at your price could be the Usher S520's.

Too many options. I'll let others chime in. Cheers, and happy hunting. Just keep listening!!! :D
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
You're welcome. As for Ascend, the 170SE is within budget, as are the 340s.

A very, very common rec at your price could be the Usher S520's.

Too many options. I'll let others chime in. Cheers, and happy hunting. Just keep listening!!! :D
The price difference in a pair of 170's from the 340's is $220. It seems as though then that the $220 would be paying for the extra 6" woofer found on the 340's? IS there a dramatic difference of quality between the 170's and 340's? And I've read that the ascends are known for their very neautral response that does that compromise nor accentuate any detail, that'd be the way I'd like to listen to my music. And shipping is free!
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
The Ascend 340 is a great speaker. It will eat the JBL for lunch. The Ushers are great as well. The Ascends have free shipping and they are very nuetral.
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
The Ascend 340 is a great speaker. It will eat the JBL for lunch. The Ushers are great as well. The Ascends have free shipping and they are very nuetral.
Thanks for the input- you must be hungry! I'm leaning more towards the ascends 340's, unless there is a reason to save the $220 and go with the 170's.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The price difference in a pair of 170's from the 340's is $220. It seems as though then that the $220 would be paying for the extra 6" woofer found on the 340's? IS there a dramatic difference of quality between the 170's and 340's? And I've read that the ascends are known for their very neautral response that does that compromise nor accentuate any detail, that'd be the way I'd like to listen to my music. And shipping is free!
Depends. If you will use stereo subs, one near each main, and use active xover to direct only frequencies over about 85hz to the 170SE, and all energy under this to the subs, you'll be better off with the 170SE. This is because it as more than sufficient dynamic ability when used as mid-treble module only, and it's smaller cabinet will have less over-all resonance as compared to the larger cabinet of the 340. The 170SE has excellent quality drivers and excellent designed crossover. It has a very neutral balance, but has a little bit hot treble output as compared to what would be ideal.

The cabinets are the biggest weak point here. Like most speakers, these have highly resonant cabinets. You just can't get away from that until you get to very high price ranges, and even then, money does not mean you will end up with a low resonance cabinet. Only a few have low resonance cabinets even at the high dollar mark ranges.

-Chris
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
Depends. If you will use stereo subs, one near each main, and use active xover to direct only frequencies over about 85hz to the 170SE, and all energy under this to the subs, you'll be better off with the 170SE. This is because it as more than sufficient dynamic ability when used as mid-treble module only, and it's smaller cabinet will have less over-all resonance as compared to the larger cabinet of the 340. The 170SE has excellent quality drivers and excellent designed crossover. It has a very neutral balance, but has a little bit hot treble output as compared to what would be ideal.

The cabinets are the biggest weak point here. Like most speakers, these have highly resonant cabinets. You just can't get away from that until you get to very high price ranges, and even then, money does not mean you will end up with a low resonance cabinet. Only a few have low resonance cabinets even at the high dollar mark ranges.

-Chris
Thanks for your detailed input. Can you recommend a brand and a price point that would produce a low to no resonant cabinet? For the absolute best music reproduction, wouldn't it be better to bypass any management and not use a sub at all? This of course would entail that the speakers used have enough extension and output for the lower frequencies. I do have a subwoofer, not a good one by any means, at least when it comes to musical atriculations; it is often muddy. I'm just looking for something that will reproduce music as if I were in the studio or concert hall with the artist.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for your detailed input. Can you recommend a brand and a price point that would produce a low to no resonant cabinet? For the absolute best music reproduction, wouldn't it be better to bypass any management and not use a sub at all? This of course would entail that the speakers used have enough extension and output for the lower frequencies. I do have a subwoofer, not a good one by any means, at least when it comes to musical atriculations; it is often muddy. I'm just looking for something that will reproduce music as if I were in the studio or concert hall with the artist.
If the sub is of high quality(most are not) and the management system fairly advanced with all needed settings/adjustments(most are not), then the best quality is achieved using these. You do need stereo subs for music, if you cross higher than about 50-55Hz, if you want the subs to seamlessly work with the mains as one speaker.

The B&W 805S is the least expensive two way I know of with all of the traits needed to work ideally with this proposed set up and has very low cabinet panel acoustic talk compared to most speakers.

Actually, instead of my explaining in detail again, go to post number 2 in the following thread where I give a more complete explanation of requirements and what can be achieved:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48078

You CAN achieve near monopolar perfection with far less money than one presumes is needed. I can explain how to limit and control many of the variables that usually make a really high end monopolar speaker that costs tens of thousands of dollars, and accomplish the same end for around $5000 using carefully selected products along with some professional audio DSP hardware and some basic self-assembly of some of the parts.

Please feel free to ask any questions you want for clarification, or further examination of any one point.

-Chris
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
If the sub is of high quality(most are not) and the management system fairly advanced with all needed settings/adjustments(most are not), then the best quality is achieved using these. You do need stereo subs for music, if you cross higher than about 50-55Hz, if you want the subs to seamlessly work with the mains as one speaker.

The B&W 805S is the least expensive two way I know of with all of the traits needed to work ideally with this proposed set up and has very low cabinet panel acoustic talk compared to most speakers.

Actually, instead of my explaining in detail again, go to post number 2 in the following thread where I give a more complete explanation of requirements and what can be achieved:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48078

I read the second post of the thread you posted here; that is quite impressive! Just one question,

You CAN achieve near monopolar perfection with far less money than one presumes is needed. I can explain how to limit and control many of the variables that usually make a really high end monopolar speaker that costs tens of thousands of dollars, and accomplish the same end for around $5000 using carefully selected products along with some professional audio DSP hardware and some basic self-assembly of some of the parts.

Please feel free to ask any questions you want for clarification, or further examination of any one point.

-Chris
I read the 2nd post on the thread you posted here, most impressive! I just have a few questions. First, when you stated "The subwoofers are simply a good investment here. You will only have to do one thing: cut a hole in each cabinet and attach the drivers," are you cutting a hole in the subwoofer cabinet and attaching the drivers from the B&W 805S right into the subwoofer cabinet? I had a little trouble understanding what you were trying to say. Also, I understand that your proposal runs in the $5-$6K range. At this point, that may be out of my reach, though in the future, I will most definitely keep it in mind. Can you propose anything I can do in the $500 price range; perhaps a similar type of setup for less money? Perhaps modify an exisitng speaker that I currently have? I realize $500 is not much, but I'm willing to extend beyond that depending on what I'm getting. I also read about defnitive technology utilizing low resonant cabinets and their studio monitor series are within reach? Any input on those? Thanks!
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I just have a few questions. First, when you stated "The subwoofers are simply a good investment here. You will only have to do one thing: cut a hole in each cabinet and attach the drivers," are you cutting a hole in the subwoofer cabinet and attaching the drivers from the B&W 805S right into the subwoofer cabinet?
No. You are installing the recommended JL Audio W7 subwoofer drivers in the subwoofer cabinets. It's a 'put your own sub together from parts' kind of deal. You can save huge $$ by going this route compared to equal quality pre-built/finished retail product.

Can you propose anything I can do in the $500 price range; perhaps a similar type of setup for less money? Perhaps modify an exisitng speaker that I currently have? I realize $500 is not much, but I'm willing to extend beyond that depending on what I'm getting.
Yes, you could do someting for much cheaper, though not $500. That is an unrealistic price range to accomplish what you want. I can, however, specify a list of products that could achieve SQ well beyond what you expect in that price range.

What receiver/pre-amp and/or amps do you currently have? You will need a receiver with pre-outs for the main channels or stand alone preamp. You will need two amplifiers. One for the main speakers and one for the subwoofers. If you have a STEREO receiver, some of these have pre-out and amp-in connections on the back with a bridge pin. This would allow you to skip buying the amp for the mains, as the bridge pin lets you use the internal amplifier as an external one in effect. Currently Harman Kardon has such a reciever on the factory site that is refurbished, for about $230(about half of new price) that would work for both the mains amp and pre-amp.

You would need at minimum these items:
1. Behringer B2030P 2 way monitors = $150
2. Pre-amp. =$??
3. Main speaker amp. =$??
4. Behringer DCX2496 DSP controller/eq/crossover system =$275
5. 2x Dayton P/N: 302-810 pre-finished Sealed SWC-2 2.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet : = $320
6. 2x Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ drivers = $340
7. Amplifier for Kappa drivers= $300-$500
8. Adapters, cables, wires = $60
9. Materials for minor main channel speaker modification = $25

Total assuming you already have suitable pre-amp and amp for mains: $1470

The speakers above while being low cost, are as good as anything up to about $500-$600/pair. They are of unusual quality. You can improve on them appreciably only if you are willing to spend $800/pair. The next level starts at about $1600/pair. These are not arbitrary prices, but price points of significant measurable superiority of specific models of speakers that jump appreciably in performance. I'll specify the more expensive models if you are interested.

The other parts(subs, amps, dsp controller, etc.) beside the mains will support ANY quality of sound quality. The only variable of SQ above will be the main speakers you choose.

It is very important to note that the subwoofer drivers above are optimized for ported systems. They will work great in sealed, but only for music, as they should be limited to about 34Hz -3dB lower end response for superb dynamic range and low distortion in sealed systems. The DCX is being used here to both apply some boost at LF, and to cut energy under 33hz at the same time, providing for maximum dynamic range/lowest distortion. For HT purposes, a different and more costly driver would be required to get flat response to 20Hz or under in a sealed system with good dynamic range and low distortion. 33Hz, however, is superb for music use.

I also read about defnitive technology utilizing low resonant cabinets and their studio monitor series are within reach? Any input on those? Thanks!
Many companies claim low resonance cabinets/designs. Very few actually prove to be true when put to actual measurement.

It is possible to put together a stereo subwoofer, active system for under $1000. But this would require compromises that do not make the rest of the parts scalable for future upgrades to very high quality main speakers. The suggestions above give you top quality bass, processing, etc. right from the start for musical playback with the only lower quality part being the mains, which can be upgraded later on to any level you wish. You could for example save up and in a couple of years use the suggested B&W 805S speakers as specified in the linked thread and the rest of the parts/hardware would be already suitable and ready to go.

-Chris
 
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