Wiring Speakers out of phase.

[Bismarck]

I had a discussion with a colleague today, and we had a disagreement about wiring speakers out of phase. I said (and I know I could very possibly be wrong) that it doesn't matter if you mix up the + and - wires, as long as every speaker is wired the same. He said that it would not sound right.

I know if the + and - is wrong on say one of the front left and right speakers, there will be an issue. As the drivers on one speaker move out, the other speaker will move in. But, if you wired the + and - wires on every speaker backwards, would you be able to tell?

 

[Bizarro_Stormy]

Let's use colors (RED/BLACK) instead of positive/negative...

RED=POSITIVE
BLACK=NEGATIVE

If the RED side of the speaker wire is inserted into BLACK post on both the speaker and receiver...
If the BLACK side of the speaker wire is inserted into RED post on both the speaker and receiver...

Nope... no difference... unless it's really extra special speaker wire...

 

[TLS Guy]

I had a discussion with a colleague today, and we had a disagreement about wiring speakers out of phase. I said (and I know I could very possibly be wrong) that it doesn't matter if you mix up the + and - wires, as long as every speaker is wired the same. He said that it would not sound right.

I know if the + and - is wrong on say one of the front left and right speakers, there will be an issue. As the drivers on one speaker move out, the other speaker will move in. But, if you wired the + and - wires on every speaker backwards, would you be able to tell?

It all depends on if you believe in absolute phase. Personally, I think it is more audiophool BS.

In any case absolute phase is seldom kept track of throughout the recoding and reproducing chain. There are many opportunities for phase invertions.

As an example many amplifiers are phase inverting. In other words the phase of the output is frequently out of phase with the input.

That is why you need to always check phase between input and output by scope when mixing amps in Bi-amped or multichannel systems.

So, yes I agree with you. However there are lot of audiophools with zero science background who will give you a heated emotional argument, based only on "hot air."

 

[Bismarck]

Let's use colors (RED/BLACK) instead of positive/negative...

RED=POSITIVE
BLACK=NEGATIVE

If the RED side of the speaker wire is inserted into BLACK post on both the speaker and receiver...
If the BLACK side of the speaker wire is inserted into RED post on both the speaker and receiver...

Nope... no difference... unless it's really extra special speaker wire...

Sorry, you are right, colors are easier than + and -. What I am attempting to say is...

The RED side of the speaker wire is hooked into the RED post on the speaker and the BLACK post on the receiver...
The Black side of the speaker wire is hooked into the Black post on the speaker and the RED post on the receiver.

I attached a simple Paint drawing

I believe that TLS Guy understood it this way.

 

[Bizarro_Stormy]

Ahhhhh... I get what you're saying now...

If every speaker is wired "out of phase", they would actually be "in phase" with each other...


I'd be careful doing that...






You could rip a hole in the space/time continuum...

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... However there are lot of audiophools with zero science background who will give you a heated emotional argument, based only on "hot air."

There is at least one well educated person, perhaps his name is Johnson, cannot remember now, that believes in that absolute phase nonsense.
There was some stuff published AES conference papers on this many moons ago, perhaps in 1991, one of the interesting AES meetings with all the fluff of audio myths lectured.

 

[Paul_Apollonio]

Blow or suck, what's the difference?

I had a discussion with a colleague today, and we had a disagreement about wiring speakers out of phase. I said (and I know I could very possibly be wrong) that it doesn't matter if you mix up the + and - wires, as long as every speaker is wired the same. He said that it would not sound right.

I know if the + and - is wrong on say one of the front left and right speakers, there will be an issue. As the drivers on one speaker move out, the other speaker will move in. But, if you wired the + and - wires on every speaker backwards, would you be able to tell?

The time old argument that we folks can hear the difference of absolute phase. I doubt it. I believe many mike preamps and amplifiers invert phase. The chance your recording's absolute phase is right or wrong is likely not much better than 50%. Whether that initial drum head pound sounds the same if the first pressure to reach your ears (assuming the wavelength is long enough for the distance between your ears to be of no consequence) is a rarefaction or a compression? I wonder. I bet with a specialized signal, and a trained listener, you can find out. As for 99.9% of most music and listeners, NOPE. You won't hear it. Just my two cents. Then again, just because 99.9% of folks cannot detect it, does not mean it is inaudible per se. All you would need is just one guy (or girl) to be able to tell repeatedly, and then.... well, nothing would change I guess except but for the fact that we would know ! (At least about the one person in the world who could tell). See where I am going with this? I think any decent psycho-acoustic model of hearing would include an RMS to DC converter equivalent. We know the pressure is going plus and minus very quickly, yet the tone loudness is constant. The conclusion to draw is that the ear-brain mechanism integrates the pressure variation over a slice of time (about a 30th of a second) and so this all happens so quickly we don't perceive it. What we perceive is loudness, and real world signals are going plus and minus both.... How to tell for sure.. Hmm. Maybe if I fired a gun at someone from close range. I have this neighbor I don't really care for anyway.... He doesn't like my dog either. It's ok to wire them all wrong, as long as you are consistent. Just don't wire them differently from one another. Then you are screwed. - Mr Paul

 

[highfigh]

The time old argument that we folks can hear the difference of absolute phase. I doubt it. I believe many mike preamps and amplifiers invert phase. The chance your recording's absolute phase is right or wrong is likely not much better than 50%. Whether that initial drum head pound sounds the same if the first pressure to reach your ears (assuming the wavelength is long enough for the distance between your ears to be of no consequence) is a rarefaction or a compression? I wonder. I bet with a specialized signal, and a trained listener, you can find out. As for 99.9% of most music and listeners, NOPE. You won't hear it. Just my two cents. Then again, just because 99.9% of folks cannot detect it, does not mean it is inaudible per se. All you would need is just one guy (or girl) to be able to tell repeatedly, and then.... well, nothing would change I guess except but for the fact that we would know ! (At least about the one person in the world who could tell). See where I am going with this? I think any decent psycho-acoustic model of hearing would include an RMS to DC converter equivalent. We know the pressure is going plus and minus very quickly, yet the tone loudness is constant. The conclusion to draw is that the ear-brain mechanism integrates the pressure variation over a slice of time (about a 30th of a second) and so this all happens so quickly we don't perceive it. What we perceive is loudness, and real world signals are going plus and minus both.... How to tell for sure.. Hmm. Maybe if I fired a gun at someone from close range. I have this neighbor I don't really care for anyway.... He doesn't like my dog either. It's ok to wire them all wrong, as long as you are consistent. Just don't wire them differently from one another. Then you are screwed. - Mr Paul

A drum beat would be a good way to tell if the impulse is positive or negative. The initial transient should be positive if the mic is placed below the drum head and it would be necessary to know the placement at some point in the test, preferably before. If the input shows a positive transient and a scope is used to see what comes from the speaker, it should also be positive.

 

[LAB3]

Mr Paul
I have not wired a speaked out of phase. So expalin what would happen if I by mistake wired one of Pop's old Cornwalls backwards at the back of the speaker??? Hurt the cross over or the drivers??
Louis

 

[TLS Guy]

Mr Paul
I have not wired a speaked out of phase. So expalin what would happen if I by mistake wired one of Pop's old Cornwalls backwards at the back of the speaker??? Hurt the cross over or the drivers??
Louis

You won't damage anything, but it will sound terrible. The speakers will fight each other. Bass will be poor to non existent and there will be no stereo sound stage, just two point sources.

 

[3db]

There is at least one well educated person, perhaps his name is Johnson, cannot remember now, that believes in that absolute phase nonsense.
There was some stuff published AES conference papers on this many moons ago, perhaps in 1991, one of the interesting AES meetings with all the fluff of audio myths lectured.

One has little or no control over absloute phase when working with receviers and or most seperates.

To the OP....

What you are trying to say is if the speakers relative to one another were wired the same but reverse on the amp/recevier, the speakers are considered in-phase. Only when one or more speakers are wired oppositley do they become out of phase.

TLS..phase in recordings is much more prevalent than you think. Its not as prevalent in classical music. Phase plays a huge impact in alot of rock recordings. Its also a big contributor in surround sound as well.

 

[LAB3]

You won't damage anything, but it will sound terrible. The speakers will fight each other. Bass will be poor to non existent and there will be no stereo sound stage, just two point sources.

Just for a experiment I swapped the wires on the back of my Klipsch Cornwall front speakers. Left side only and did not notice any loss in Bass??????????? Ran my Auddessy on my AVR and it showed the front Left out of Phase... cool function, but again I played a song or two and did not hear any difference??????????? I am 60 and don't need a hearing aid yet but I really did not notice any difference?? Odd....... I have always used good speaker wires and always paid attention to the +&- on all speakers for years.

 

[Alex2507]

Just for a experiment I swapped the wires on the back of my Klipsch Cornwall front speakers. Left side only and did not notice any loss in Bass??????????? Ran my Auddessy on my AVR and it showed the front Left out of Phase... cool function, but again I played a song or two and did not hear any difference??????????? I am 60 and don't need a hearing aid yet but I really did not notice any difference?? Odd....... I have always used good speaker wires and always paid attention to the +&- on all speakers for years.

My guess is that if you leave it out of phase for like a month you'll eventually learn to 'recognize' that it doesn't sound right. It definitely screws up the stereo sound stage. I've used a test disc that puts an out of phase signal to one speaker and it ends up sounding like the tone is coming from one of the rear corners instead of the front of the room. It's very odd that you didn't notice a difference. Are you human?

 

[LAB3]

My guess is that if you leave it out of phase for like a month you'll eventually learn to 'recognize' that it doesn't sound right. It definitely screws up the stereo sound stage. I've used a test disc that puts an out of phase signal to one speaker and it ends up sounding like the tone is coming from one of the rear corners instead of the front of the room. It's very odd that you didn't notice a difference. Are you human?

Yes I am human lol my ex wife may differ. I have a very small room with a lot of Klipsch speakers for my surround system (horns) I really did not notice any loss in Bass (Cornwalls 15" woofers) 12' apart and sofa is 8' feet from center of flatt scrren with Corns on each side "Towed In" the corners of the wall. Only jammed 2 songs (was bored,retired) so tried this experiment. Several members have posted the speakers will sound bad etc.......??? Is this a Klipsch thing as they do not need a lot of power for how Huge the cabinets are.

 

[3db]

Just for a experiment I swapped the wires on the back of my Klipsch Cornwall front speakers. Left side only and did not notice any loss in Bass??????????? Ran my Auddessy on my AVR and it showed the front Left out of Phase... cool function, but again I played a song or two and did not hear any difference??????????? I am 60 and don't need a hearing aid yet but I really did not notice any difference?? Odd....... I have always used good speaker wires and always paid attention to the +&- on all speakers for years.

To do this experiment right, do the following:

1. turn audessy off while running the experiment.
2. get a good stereo recording with a strong center image and use that as your demo.
3. what you should notice is a much diffuse center image when out of phase as opposed to a tight focused center image when in phase.

 

[LAB3]

To do this experiment right, do the following:

1. turn audessy off while running the experiment.
2. get a good stereo recording with a strong center image and use that as your demo.
3. what you should notice is a much diffuse center image when out of phase as opposed to a tight focused center image when in phase.

I understand "Good Idea" thanks. Next time We move thses big boxs to vacuum behind I will try that. Is the Audssey Processor hiding some of the distoration?

 

[PENG]

Yes I am human lol my ex wife may differ. I have a very small room with a lot of Klipsch speakers for my surround system (horns) I really did not notice any loss in Bass (Cornwalls 15" woofers) 12' apart and sofa is 8' feet from center of flatt scrren with Corns on each side "Towed In" the corners of the wall. Only jammed 2 songs (was bored,retired) so tried this experiment. Several members have posted the speakers will sound bad etc.......??? Is this a Klipsch thing as they do not need a lot of power for how Huge the cabinets are.

You should be able to hear the difference easily if you set your 805 to pure direct when playing a CD with vocal. When wired out of phase the vocal will sound diffuse, instead of coming from the center it will appear to come from both sides. Depending on you room acoustic condition and especially with Audyssey on you may not hear less bass in stereo or multichannel.

If you have a two channel integrated or preamp and amp combo you will have a much greater chance hearing weakened bass when wired out of phase if you push in the "mono" buttons.

 

[LAB3]

You should be able to hear the difference easily if you set your 805 to pure direct when playing a CD with vocal. When wired out of phase the vocal will sound diffuse, instead of coming from the center it will appear to come from both sides. Depending on you room acoustic condition and especially with Audyssey on you may not hear less bass in stereo or multichannel.

If you have a two channel integrated or preamp and amp combo you will have a much greater chance hearing weakened bass when wired out of phase if you push in the "mono" buttons.

My late Dad's old seperates( McIntosh) finally gave it up after 30 years so I went AVR back in 2003 with the Yamaha RX-V2400 7.1.............no HD decoders no HDMI. Got into 5.2 surround for DVD movies back then, now 805 HD A/V Bluray. Pure Direct (no subs or sound bar just the Cornwalls 13X17 foot room gets close to seperates in small room. One of my friends said the Corns have a "Woodie" sound with low volume but still full bass. Don't own a 2 channel anything anymore. Good Idea.

 

[3db]

I understand "Good Idea" thanks. Next time We move thses big boxs to vacuum behind I will try that. Is the Audssey Processor hiding some of the distoration?

I'm not sure. I'm inclined to say no because Audessy ( i may be wrong here) does room correction through amplitude and not phase. Like PENG and I both said, reversing teh phase will spread the soundstage across both speakers where as in phase will give you a tightend center image all relative to the sweet spot which is usually the listener's favourite chair.

 

[Midwesthonky]

The real answer to what happens when you wire speakers out of phase is your dog will circle clockwise when laying down instead of counter-clockwise.

I can provide this smart-a$$ response because one semester back in college I had wired both speakers in this manner and didn't notice until it was time to tear down to move out at the end of the semester. Lack of notice could have been induced by beer but I thought I was sober when I hooked it up.