Will My AVR Be Sufficient To Drive These Speakers Loud?

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I used a Denon 5308... in the mid-2000s, it was here for several years actually. It was a horrible-sounding piece of crap when it came to the amplifier section. It was SO OBVIOUSLY terrible sounding compared to using its line-level outputs into any decent standalone amp(s) NOBODY could have missed it. And that was with 8-Ohm speakers. 4-Ohm speakers were made to sound dark, muffled, & gray, with high frequencies that lacked life. I currently have a Denon X8500H here (from the last model year, 2019 introduction I think, a $4000 AVR and it is INCAPABLE of revealing the full performance of ANY loudspeaker, but 4-Ohm speakers really suffer. Do you realize that "4-Ohms" doesn't mean any given 4-Ohm speaker has a linear impedance of 4-Ohms over the entire audio frequency range? Almost all 4-Ohm speakers have impedance dips that go down to 2 Ohms in one to three places in the frequency spectrum. This affects just part of the frequency range, but more current is demanded in those parts of the frequency spectrum. Do you understand that amplifier circuits do not deliver power continuously? They can't/don't produce any power at all until the instantaneous AC Power Line voltage is higher than the power supply voltage rails in the amp? If the amp's power supply voltage is 90 volts, when the AC power line is below 90 volts, the amp circuit produces NO power. The amp can only DELIVER power during parts of the AC power waveform with voltages from 90.1 volts to 172 volts (about what AC peak voltages are for nominal 117 VAC power). When the power line sine wave is in the range of 0-90 volts (or 0 to minus90 volts) the amplifier power supply stores power in the power supply capacitors. The amplifier begins producing power as the instantaneous sine wave voltage goes above 90 volts. When that happens, current RUSHES-IN to the amp at close to DOUBLE the rated current consumption. Amplifiers draw current at about DOUBLE their current rating (when driven to full power) for half of the AC Power sine wave and they create ZERO power for about half of any given AC power sine-wave cycle. When you look at the CURRENT going into an amplifier on a 'scope, you see more or less a square wave that is modulated by the music signal across the "tops" of the square waves. There are also Asian companies who make AVRs for customers who DESIGN THEIR OWN AVR either from scratch or by modifying a "stock" AVR design and having that modified AVR be sold under their potentially non-Asian brand. Asian-manufacture doesn't automatically make an AVR "Asian-brand" for purposes of my responses, because the AVR design could be English, Canadian, US, French, German and simply be BUILT over there to reduce costs. Some of those Asian factories cater to customer-designed products from the circuits to the appearance and features. Asian-designed AVRs work best with 8-Ohm speakers, and are useful with most 6-Ohm speakers. I have used top-line and mid-line AVRs from StormAudio, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Sony, Anthem, AudioControl, Arcam, Cambridge, NAD, Rotel, Outlaw, Pioneer, & Yamaha. And that list is just from the last 10 years, I've been doing this a long time. Current is king for 4-Ohm speakers and Asian-brand AVRs aren't concerned with current in AVRs to support 4-Ohm speakers. Period. That said, AFTER the Denon 5308, somewhere around 2010 or 2011, something happened to Asian-brand AVRs... the AMPLIFIER sections got MUCH BETTER SOUNDING, I mean night and day better-sounding. But they were still good only for 6 and 8 Ohm speakers. A NAD AVR rated at 80 watts delivered much more current to a 4-Ohm speaker than a Denon 140 w/ch AVR and the NAD AVR sounded better than the Asian-brand AVR by an obvious amount on those 4-Ohm speakers. I don't remember if the NAD AVR was made in China or not, but WHERE it was made isn't the issue, it is the DESIGN of the AVR's amp section that makes all the difference. Asian-brand "watts" are MEANINGLESS when it comes to speakers that need more current than 8 or 6 ohm speakers because the Asian brands aren't designed to deliver the current. They are only designed to TOLERATE 4-Ohm speakers without damaging the AVR. Once the current demand on the amp exceeds the amp's ability to DELIVER current to the speaker, clipping begins in the voltage domain and that clipping presents pulsating DC to the tweeters causing them to get hot... if exposed long enough, the tweeter will fail from the heat. How long is "long enough" -- I'd guess 15 seconds to 2 minutes depending on the severity of the clipping. But I've never blown up tweeters with an AVR so not sure. I have observed clipping in the analog waveform going to the speakers when using an oscilloscope, so I can always find the point where an AVR begins to give up on current pretty easily. And Asian-brands (not Asian-manufacture, but Asian-brands) are very clearly not delivering as much current as Anthem, AudioControl, NAD, Rotel, StormAudio (AVR now discontinued... it was $14,000-ish), Cambridge, or Arcam.

Indeed, people can say anything they want online. Some of us happen to know what we're talking about--I know it's rare. But I'm one of the ones who "know things" because of my background in engineering (mechanical, video, electrical, computer, and power supply), high-end audio, and home theater (I took my engineering interests and applied them to home audio and theater that turned into a hobby and a second profession). I worked on the film scanning equipment used in some of the first digital remasters of classic movies like "Snow White"... not running the equipment, but designing and testing it and leaning over image scientists' shoulders while scanned images were examined almost microscopically. Also worked on digital cinema and 3D devices for medical, oil exploration, outer space use, and other critical 3-D applications. I designed and tested power supplies and insured they met EMI/RF emission standards world-wide (which get pretty weird, and very specific). No way for you to know that, of course. Not sure how else to explain how I know what I know.
Quite a spurt there. Hear of things called paragraphs? Got some proof on your assertions about the boutique brands being better at/providing more current?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I used a Denon 5308... in the mid-2000s, it was here for several years actually. It was a horrible-sounding piece of crap when it came to the amplifier section. It was SO OBVIOUSLY terrible sounding compared to using its line-level outputs into any decent standalone amp(s) NOBODY could have missed it. And that was with 8-Ohm speakers. 4-Ohm speakers were made to sound dark, muffled, & gray, with high frequencies that lacked life. I currently have a Denon X8500H here (from the last model year, 2019 introduction I think, a $4000 AVR and it is INCAPABLE of revealing the full performance of ANY loudspeaker, but 4-Ohm speakers really suffer.
I would be curious to know what @gene and Theo Nicolakis have to say about that since they are familiar with the 5308 and 8500 you just use as examples of how horrible sounding, crab such Asian AVRs are.:D

Your paragraph on questioning if I realize..., understand impedance and power rating etc., is a little long to quote. Regardless, I am willing to say may be I don't, I am just a licensed professional engineer specialized and practiced in mostly electrical power, control and a little bit of communication. So what do I know, I would just say not much, not enough.. And I have not, and will not question your understanding of the same. Merry Christmas!
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I used a Denon 5308... in the mid-2000s, it was here for several years actually. It was a horrible-sounding piece of crap when it came to the amplifier section. It was SO OBVIOUSLY terrible sounding compared to using its line-level outputs into any decent standalone amp(s) NOBODY could have missed it. And that was with 8-Ohm speakers. 4-Ohm speakers were made to sound dark, muffled, & gray, with high frequencies that lacked life. I currently have a Denon X8500H here (from the last model year, 2019 introduction I think, a $4000 AVR and it is INCAPABLE of revealing the full performance of ANY loudspeaker, but 4-Ohm speakers really suffer. across the "tops" of the square waves. There are also Asian companies who make AVRs for customers who DESIGN THEIR OWN AVR either from scratch or by modifying a "stock" AVR design and having that modified AVR be sold under their potentially non-Asian brand. Asian-manufacture doesn't automatically make an AVR "Asian-brand" for purposes of my responses, because the AVR design could be English, Canadian, US, French, German and simply be BUILT over there to reduce costs. Some of those Asian factories cater to customer-designed products. Asian-designed AVRs work best with 8-Ohm speakers, and are useful with most 6-Ohm speakers. I have used top-line and mid-line AVRs from StormAudio, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Sony, Anthem, AudioControl, Arcam, Cambridge, NAD, Rotel, Outlaw, Pioneer, & Yamaha. And that list is just from the last 10 years, I've been doing this a long time. Current is king for 4-Ohm speakers and Asian-brand AVRs aren't concerned with current in AVRs to support 4-Ohm speakers. Period. That said, AFTER the Denon 5308, somewhere around 2010 or 2011, something happened to Asian-brand AVRs... the AMPLIFIER sections got MUCH BETTER SOUNDING, I mean night and day better-sounding.
tenor-8.gif
 
S

stalag2005

Full Audioholic
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am beginning to see a trend here.

1. Low impedance speakers need more current to drive the speaker. At particular frequencies the nominal resistance could be halved requiring even more current to drive those frequencies.
2. Noise is additive, any one component can have a low noise floor but all components in the chain affect the next device until audio is played at the speaker.
3. To drive low impedance speakers requires more power.
4. Separates (preprocessor/amplifier) can drive to louder levels just due to inherent limitations of an AVR provided you buy an amplifier that can output greater sustained output than the AVR can deliver.
5. Some AVR's are better than others.
6. Some amplifiers are better than others.
7. Newer stuff tends to show some improvement over older stuff (usually, there may be exceptions).
8. There are sharp differences of opinion what is good. Numbers help but experience also helps to determine how and if one AVR/(preprocessor/amplifier) combination works best.
9. Quality of speakers can also impede good performance no matter how good the other components in the chain are.
10. You get what you pay for and doing research is necessary to get the best combination that works with the equipment you have!
 
M

mj30250

Audioholic Intern
Heh, I wasn't expecting this to spin out into such a controversial topic.

I've spent more time with the system both with music and HT, mostly at loud (but not torturous volumes as previously described during "reference level" testing) and while I'm no audio engineer nor do I have any measurements to share, to my ears everything sounds completely rock solid and I've yet to discern even the faintest signs of distortion or clipping. Even when pulling the subs out of the mix and running the towers loudly at full range (something I would rarely do during normal use), everything is clean and smooth. No smoking tweeters to be found yet, I'm afraid.

I'm still tempted to order something along the lines of a pair of Outlaw 2220 amps to drive the T2+s, just to see if I'd notice any differences, but I also can't help feeling that it'd be ~$800 largely wasted, particularly as the AVR has shown no signs of overheating - the dual Infinity fans appear to be doing their job.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am beginning to see a trend here.

1. Low impedance speakers need more current to drive the speaker. At particular frequencies the nominal resistance could be halved requiring even more current to drive those frequencies.
2. Noise is additive, any one component can have a low noise floor but all components in the chain affect the next device until audio is played at the speaker.
3. To drive low impedance speakers requires more power.
4. Separates (preprocessor/amplifier) can drive to louder levels just due to inherent limitations of an AVR provided you buy an amplifier that can output greater sustained output than the AVR can deliver.
5. Some AVR's are better than others.
6. Some amplifiers are better than others.
7. Newer stuff tends to show some improvement over older stuff (usually, there may be exceptions).
8. There are sharp differences of opinion what is good. Numbers help but experience also helps to determine how and if one AVR/(preprocessor/amplifier) combination works best.
9. Quality of speakers can also impede good performance no matter how good the other components in the chain are.
10. You get what you pay for and doing research is necessary to get the best combination that works with the equipment you have!
In reverse order:
10. Yes
9. Speaker quality WILL be the biggest determinant in SQ and is hand-in-hand with the Speaker-Room interaction.
8. Meh. Too much room here for bias to slip in.
7. Mostly agree. :)
6. Yes. But what makes an amplifier better? Is is stability at 4 or even 2 Ohms? Clean power delivery regardless of load? Capacitance bank? Ability to dissipate heat? :)
5. Yes. and like 6... what are the items you would attribute to one being better than another?
4. Misleading. I use an AVR with external Amps to supplement the on-board amps. In this regard the AVR is a processor. Works fine. Costs less than an equivalent AVP (economy of scale). And I have on-board Amps to reun less demanding channels. Amps on an AVR achieve the same thing ans Separates.
3. More current. Power is a confusing word here as it is used to describe Watts.
2. Yes
1. Yes

1 and 3 are almost the same statement. Power will increase with Current. I am not an electrician so some nuances may escape me, and maybe what you said in 3 is technically correct due to that correlation between wattage and current.
More than anything, this interests me and I'm hoping to see some further conversation about your list. :D And as always, corrections to what I wrote are welcome!!! ;)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am beginning to see a trend here.

1. Low impedance speakers need more current to drive the speaker. At particular frequencies the nominal resistance could be halved requiring even more current to drive those frequencies.
2. Noise is additive, any one component can have a low noise floor but all components in the chain affect the next device until audio is played at the speaker.
3. To drive low impedance speakers requires more power.
4. Separates (preprocessor/amplifier) can drive to louder levels just due to inherent limitations of an AVR provided you buy an amplifier that can output greater sustained output than the AVR can deliver.
5. Some AVR's are better than others.
6. Some amplifiers are better than others.
7. Newer stuff tends to show some improvement over older stuff (usually, there may be exceptions).
8. There are sharp differences of opinion what is good. Numbers help but experience also helps to determine how and if one AVR/(preprocessor/amplifier) combination works best.
9. Quality of speakers can also impede good performance no matter how good the other components in the chain are.
10. You get what you pay for and doing research is necessary to get the best combination that works with the equipment you have!
Nicely summarized! In addition to using the term "current" instead of "power" to avoid confusion, also keep in mind that in practice, sensitivity of the speaker in x dB/2.83V/meter and the phase angle are also very important, all else being equal. For example, an 8 ohm nominal speaker with dips to below 4 ohms combined with large phase angle over the range say 30-200 Hz could be more demanding than a 4 Ohm nominal speaker with dips no lower than 3 ohms and have benign phase angles vs frequencies, sensitivities being comparable. It is important to look at the full specs (with curves), not just the single value "nominal impedance".
 

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