Why would anyone do that?

[Nestor]

That's exactly the point he point he was making.

Tillis looks even more foolish in that his stance begs the question: once the burdensome regulation to compel businesses to ensure their employees wash their hands is removed, how does one compel the same businesses put up a sign saying their employees may not have washed their hands?


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[Nestor]

While this may seem off topic, I think it goes in line with what we're talking about. It also proves that it's not just wacko liberals, like myself, but this non sense crosses all political boundaries.
When people like Thom Tillis are against hand washing saying, "It's a government overreach". What do you think their outlook on vaccines would be?

Again, here's the link to Thom 'Fecal Fingers' Tillis' comments.

http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/thom-tillis-keep-government-out-of-the-bathroom/?dcz=

I agree the antivax stance spans the political spectrum. The common denominator appears to be distrust. At one end, it's big pharma, and at the other it's big govt.


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[Swerd]

I agree the antivax stance spans the political spectrum. The common denominator appears to be distrust. At one end, it's big pharma, and at the other it's big govt.

Big pharma is probably the most highly regulated industry there is in the US. Yet people people believe all sorts of nonsense about it based on their political beliefs. rnatalli pointed out that the anti-vaxxers can be people "who believe the science related to climate change, but not vaccines" Try and explain that.

The distrust in certain large well-established institutions is often replaced by trust in poorly established but often repeated rumors. If it comes from the street instead of an established institution, it must be true.

Does anyone remember these older versions of distrust or hysteria?

• Electromagnetic radiation from cell phones causes brain cancer. Before cell phones, it was microwaves or electric power lines.
  
  
• HIV was a CIA plot to kill African-Americans.
  
  
• Bell Telephone (back in the days when there was just one phone monopoly) was plotting to take over the world.
  
  
• Fluoridated public water supplies, intended to reduce the amount of tooth decay, was feared to be a Communist plot. I was never sure just what evil would be accomplished by putting fluoride in drinking water, but maybe just being Commie was enough.

There must be others. Anyone?

 

[Hobbit]

Big pharma is probably the most highly regulated industry there is in the US. Yet people people believe all sorts of nonsense about it based on their political beliefs. rnatalli pointed out that the anti-vaxxers can be people "who believe the science related to climate change, but not vaccines" Try and explain that.

The distrust in certain large well-established institutions is often replaced by trust in poorly established but often repeated rumors. If it comes from the street instead of an established institution, it must be true.

Does anyone remember these older versions of distrust or hysteria?

• Electromagnetic radiation from cell phones causes brain cancer. Before cell phones, it was microwaves or electric power lines.
  
  
• HIV was a CIA plot to kill African-Americans.
  
  
• Bell Telephone (back in the days when there was just one phone monopoly) was plotting to take over the world.
  
  
• Fluoridated public water supplies, intended to reduce the amount of tooth decay, was feared to be a Communist plot. I was never sure just what evil would be accomplished by putting fluoride in drinking water, but maybe just being Commie was enough.

There must be others. Anyone?

There are many others: How could we be depleting the ozone when LA has so much of it?

It irks me that people will base beliefs like immunization, climate change, and even recycling solely on political affiliation, religious belief, anecdotal evidence, or just poor forward thinking.

The other day someone told me they got the flu even though they received a flu vaccine. Therefore, flu vaccines don't work and she'll never get one again. Talk about a false syllogism! She went on to imply that it was probably something in the shot that gave her the flu. She also never went to a doctor. For all I know she could have had any bug that produces flu like symptoms.

 

[KEW]

Tillis looks even more foolish in that his stance begs the question: once the burdensome regulation to compel businesses to ensure their employees wash their hands is removed, how does one compel the same businesses put up a sign saying their employees may not have washed their hands?


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That is obvious, a burdensome regulation to compel businesses to put up said sign is needed...of course they could opt out of putting up that sign if they instead put one up that explained they do not require themselves to put up a sign saying they do not require their employees to wash their hands.
F*ck! Is this where bureaucracy comes from? I'm beginning to think like a politician!

 

[KEW]

I was never sure just what evil would be accomplished by putting fluoride in drinking water

I agree completely with your premise, but in response to this comment, you do know fluoride is toxic, don't you? It is strongly attracted to bones and, consequently, we are absorbing a layer of toxin in the surface of our teeth. That is good because bone can handle it and bacteria cannot. No one will argue that what Fluoride we ingest is good for our bodies; only that it is generally considered a worthwhile trade-off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity
Or just read the Toothpaste tube where it says to call the Poison Control Center if you decide to suck down a tube.

The same is true of Chlorine. It is good that it is in our water supply so as to prevent some nasty bugs, but it is not really a nice thing to consume.

 

[Hobbit]

The same is true of Chlorine. It is good that it is in our water supply so as to prevent some nasty bugs, but it is not really a nice thing to consume.

As are many of the foods we eat. Cinnamon, for one, is toxic and can cause liver and kidney damage when taken in high concentrations.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The same is true of Chlorine. It is good that it is in our water supply so as to prevent some nasty bugs, but it is not really a nice thing to consume.

Chloride is of course added to town water supply to ensure microbes free water, however chlorine is carcinogen and some Townships add it a bit over the top, like our does. One of the first projects we done here is to install whole house water filter and softner. Not cheap, but it's best investment we done so far. Also saves tons of money buying bottled water for us and more importantly our baby. Btw: before filter our level of chlorine was 0.8 ppm

 

[Swerd]

Yes, I know fluoride can be toxic . And yes, I can geek out on chemistry .

Low levels of fluoride is toxic to bacteria. The recommended level of fluoride in water is 0.5 to 1.0 mg/L (milligrams per liter). This is significantly lower than the amount toxic to humans.

Fluoride is toxic to humans if 5-10 g of NaF is consumed, 32-64 mg fluoride/kg body weight. That is quite a lot compared to what is added to drinking water.

Fluoride, when present as tooth enamel (made largely of calcium phosphate) is forming in children, creates teeth with much harder enamel that resists bacterial erosion.

The mechanism of fluoride action is quite different than the mechanism of chlorine's toxicity. Fluoride is a negative anion that inhibits an enzyme in glucose metabolism. Most bacteria are significantly more sensitive to low levels of fluoride than we are. Chlorine (Cl2) is a gas that is a potent oxidizer. In water, it generate hypochlorous acid, bleach. It destroys nearly all bacteria, fungus, or virus particles at low levels. Animal tissues can also be damaged by chlorine, if exposed to the chlorine gas or high levels dissolved in water.

If you boil water, or pass it through an activated charcoal filter, chlorine is removed. Dissolved fluoride, cannot be so easily removed. That requires distilling the water, reverse osmosis, or passing the water through a deionizing column.

 

[Chu Gai]

As are many of the foods we eat. Cinnamon, for one, is toxic and can cause liver and kidney damage when taken in high concentrations.

Depends from where the cinnamon was sourced. Ceylon cinnamon has orders of magnitude less of the harmful impurities.

 

[KEW]

Yes, I know fluoride can be toxic . And yes, I can geek out on chemistry .

Low levels of fluoride is toxic to bacteria. The recommended level of fluoride in water is 0.5 to 1.0 mg/L (milligrams per liter). This is significantly lower than the amount toxic to humans.

The problem is a toxicity study is kind of like a motorcycle helmet. It is woefully inadequate, but it is the best practicable solution we can come up with. While it is very important to stay alive, I am so bold as to want to maintain good health as well. So the real question is at what level does a constituent adversely effect health. But even that is inadequate, because what I really want to know is at what level does a constituent adversely effect health given the interactions with other chemicals we are likely to encounter in the course of our lives. The bottom line is its a confounded question that the best of today's science cannot really begin to address. We just aren't able to determine how much is too much with confidence.

Here is a good example from the Wikipedia article showing how an interaction with iodine:

Thyroid[edit]
Fluoride's suppressive effect on the thyroid is more severe when iodine is deficient, and fluoride is associated with lower levels of iodine.[clarification needed][28] Thyroid effects in humans were associated with fluoride levels 0.05–0.13 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was adequate and 0.01–0.03 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was inadequate.[20]:263 Its mechanisms and effects on the endocrine system remain unclear.[20]:266

So I probably drink around 4 liters a day. At the HHS recommended 0.7mg/liter, I consume 2.8mg.
My iodine is probably fine because I love salt. So I weigh 230lbs or 104kg, thus, using the value of 0.05mg/kg/day, my allowance is 5.2mg/day. If I was low iodine and susceptible to the low end of 0.01mg/kg/day, my allowance would be 1.04mg per day which means I am consuming twice as much as maintaining good health allows.
Consider my daughter who runs at least 2.5 miles every day (cross-country). She is half my weight and easily drinks twice as much as I do. I like to think that through exercise, sweat, and increased metabolism, her body is better equipped to handle stuff like this; because she certainly is pushing these limits. She consumes 5.6mg/day which equates to 0.11mg/kg/day.
I realize that there is little conclusive about this, but that is kind of my point. Biology is just freakin complicated!

 

[Alex2507]

 

[herbu]

That's exactly the point he point he was making.

So what does, "The market will take care of that", mean?
Did you get your understanding from Brian Williams?

 

[psbfan9]

So what does, "The market will take care of that", mean?
Did you get your understanding from Brian Williams?

I got my understanding from the drug addled Rush Limbaugh.

It means that when everyone gets HepC because of dangerous and irresponsible comments like, "I'm ok with food service workers opting out of hand washing regulations", there will be no one left to support these 'no wash' establishments. He's certainly not against regulations, because he says, "As long they as put up sign saying they have 'opted out' ". Which in itself is a regulation. So it's obvious his issue is with hand washing.

 

[Swerd]

The problem is a toxicity study is kind of like a…

Biology is just freakin complicated!

Not nearly as complicated as endcrinology!

If you are concerned about possibly low iodine, or small amounts of fluoride competing with it. Don't obsess over it, get your thyroid hormone (T3 and T4) levels checked. They are a direct measure of how well iodine gets incorporated by the thyroid. If they are within normal ranges, stop worrying.

 

[KEW]

...stop worrying.

[/QUOTE]

I sincerely thank you for your concern! And glad Alex posted his cartoon (I would have thrown that in my post if I had seen it).
I was wondering if my post seemed "doom and gloom". That is not my perspective.
To continue with the a "toxicity study is like a motorcycle helmet" analogy, even though a helmet is woefully inadequate, that doesn't keep me off the bike!
My point is that if we really get honest, we do not have a very commanding knowledge of matters of chemicals and health. Just consider individual sensitivities where something like Celiac disease essentially makes gluten toxic for ~1% of the population.

Life is full of uncertainty. Either embrace that uncertainty and live "in the question" or find a source of dogma that allows you to live in denial. And that is probably the answer to "Why would anyone do that?".

 

[Hobbit]

I sincerely thank you for your concern! And glad Alex posted his cartoon (I would have thrown that in my post if I had seen it).
I was wondering if my post seemed "doom and gloom". That is not my perspective.
To continue with the a "toxicity study is like a motorcycle helmet" analogy, even though a helmet is woefully inadequate, that doesn't keep me off the bike!
My point is that if we really get honest, we do not have a very commanding knowledge of matters of chemicals and health. Just consider individual sensitivities where something like Celiac disease essentially makes gluten toxic for ~1% of the population.

Life is full of uncertainty. Either embrace that uncertainty and live "in the question" or find a source of dogma that allows you to live in denial. And that is probably the answer to "Why would anyone do that?". [/QUOTE]

That's why I brought up cinnamon. There's a host of other foods that we regularly eat that aren't good for you in large quantities. Peanuts kill a couple of hundred people in the US every year. Not enough sun light you're vitamin D deficient, to much you risk getting skin cancer, etc.

Even though we have an abundant of knowledge of the body, I took a year a A&P for fun (I'm an engineer), I do question what we really know. I've lost family and friends to cancer. My college room mate died of testicular cancer. One of the most curable cancers. It does seem the treatments they give now are just more finally tuned versions of the treatments my grandfather received in the 70s and my college roommate in the 80s. The perception is that in 30+ years we've not made considerable progress.

 

[Alex2507]

I was wondering if my post seemed "doom and gloom".

I thought it was more about really complicated math.

 

[Rickster71]

Very Low Vaccination Rates at Silicon Valley Day Cares
http://www.wired.com/2015/02/tech-companies-and-vaccines/
A WIRED investigation shows that some children attending day care facilities affiliated with prominent Silicon Valley companies have not been completely vaccinated against preventable infectious diseases.

 

[herbu]

some children attending day care facilities affiliated with prominent Silicon Valley companies have not been completely vaccinated

Very "progressive".