Why the Axiom bashing??

[jinjuku]

So their subs are crap--they stop advertising--and now, all of a sudden, all of their speakers are crap?

I'm just trying to understand. I bought my original 5.1 system (with a HSU sub) from Axiom mostly based on reviews and glowing recommendations from this site.

Can I believe no internet information?

Look at it this way: Is a showroom condition 99' Camry with zero miles on it a piece of junk in 2011? No. But it doesn't hold up against the competition of 2011.

I didn't say the Axiom subs are junk. It is however a dated design. How you can expect it to compete with the current crop of ID subs just beggars the imagination. I'm all ears for your explanation on this one.

 

[MinusTheBear]

These are the only measurements of the EP800 that I know of. Its hard to understand because the review is from Isreal but I get the impression Axiom was not impressed with his measurements.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=iw&tl=en&u=http://www.hometheater.co.il/p-1.article01526&rurl=translate.google.com

 

[gene]

These are the only measurements of the EP800 that I know of. Its hard to understand because the review is from Isreal but I get the impression Axiom was not impressed with his measurements.

I stand corrected. However there are no Max SPL vs frequency tests or THD tests done in this review. Any sub can measure well at low output levels. The proof is in how they behave or misbehave when driven to their output extremes.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I stand corrected. However there are no Max SPL vs frequency tests or THD tests done in this review. Any sub can measure well at low output levels. The proof is in how they behave or misbehave when driven to their output extremes.

Indeed. Even at a low sweep level it seems to roll-off quite early according to close-mic measurement. Is that because of the sealed nature?

 

[gene]

Indeed. Even at a low sweep level it seems to roll-off quite early according to close-mic measurement. Is that because of the sealed nature?

No, in fact a sealed sub is the easiest thing to measure b/c you can literally do a nearfield measurement and get its exact frequency response but the SPL levels of course will be off. Either the sub was compressing or his mic preamp was compressing. No idea without testing one myself.

I actually recently measured a Velodyne DD-15+ in-room nearfield vs 1 meter outdoors groundplane. When I overlaid the graphs the match was virtually identical. I used this to come up with a correction curve for doing in-room 1 meter measurements but the SPL's were too loud for my wife to tolerate so I was relegated to continue my testing outdoors

 

[Haoleb]

Axiom pulled away because their subs don't compete. End of Story. Period.

AH sub shoot out was going to show this and this irked Axiom. Hence the falling out. But don't just take any ones word for it. Ask Haoleb how his Axiom compared to a single Kappa Perfect/Behringer sub build.

What we are talking about here is really apples to oranges when it boils down. And like I have said before it doesnt mean the EP600 is junk. It is a very good subwoofer. But when you compare it to something that took considerably longer to produce with considerably more power and also tuned for proper in room FR you cant really expect it to be just as good. Im confident I could get any comparably priced subwoofer from any of axioms competition and would still end up liking the kappa sub I built better...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Nobody is bashing anybody.

It's okay to change our minds or take back we've said in the past. Mistake happens.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

We don't have to like every speaker out there, and it's okay not to like them.

Some people choose to voice their personal thoughts on the matter, and that is all.

Nothing personal against any owners out there.

If you like them, it's cool.

 

[jonnythan]

This all seems horrendously political to me.

 

[jinjuku]

What we are talking about here is really apples to oranges when it boils down. And like I have said before it doesnt mean the EP600 is junk. It is a very good subwoofer. But when you compare it to something that took considerably longer to produce with considerably more power and also tuned for proper in room FR you cant really expect it to be just as good. Im confident I could get any comparably priced subwoofer from any of axioms competition and would still end up liking the kappa sub I built better...

You are making my point. I didn't say the EP600 is junk. I use your setup as an example that it is however outdated. You took pictures of the bare driver of both setups. For $1800 there are demonstratively better built drivers out there now.

I'm sure the new SVS/Rythmik offerings at the same $1800 price point of the EP600 will deliver a better experience. They are delivering sub optimal experience not because the EP600 is junk, they are doing it because they haven't kept up with the times. This is a comparative analysis. Same as if I compared a sub from 97 to the EP600, it would look good in that light. Maybe even market leading. It's all about what is available NOW.

If you haven't come out with a refresh in quite a while, well OF COURSE your stuff is going to be dated. You either lead the market or you cede the market.

This whole falling out stems from the Subwoofer shoot out so I keep my debate limited to that. I challenge anyone here to find a current thread on any major, independent audio forum, where when asked with a ~$2K budget for a sub Axiom is mentioned. This probably hasn't happened in a year or better. That says all that need be said right there.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What have you done for me lately?

Only companies that can walk the walk come here to Audioholics because these companies have nothing to hide.

But things change. Administrations change.

And as InTheIndustry pointed out to me, the minute ANY of these companies have something to hide or omit the truth, they are effectively lying, and they will lose my respect.

They can always regain my respect by walking the walk again - pick themselves back up and improve to meet or exceed expectations.

 

[u2generator]

First and foremost, I sincerely thank all who have posted on this thread. I appreciate your candor and passion.

I made my original post because I am seriously considering buying Axiom Speakers (again) for my new home. After reading about some issues, I wanted to try and make sure Axiom still offers a good product and is customer oriented. I am getting up a little in my years and hate to deal with BS issues (like QA issues).

A large part of my decision to stay with Axiom is; my wife has grown accustomed to the look of the QS-8’s-especially since they can be color customized to blend in with our (her) décor. The mains (and center speaker) are in a (heaven forbid) custom built cabinet behind cabinets doors covered in guitar speaker cloth.

I have never heard (or read a review on) an Axiom sub. Personally, I find them too expensive and won’t spend time on something I can’t (or won’t) afford. I own a HSU and am very happy with it. If I ever need another sub I’ll probably buy another HSU.

I have some hearing issues-especially the higher frequencies, from playing guitar in various bands for a little over two decades.

In closing, I value this Site. I look to this Site for advice and suggestions. I merely got a little confused from some of the information I read.

All is good, now.

Thanks again,

TW

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Some companies have actually improved their products because of their reviews.

Gene has mentioned many times before based on a review of a product that he has recommended many manufacturer to make changes. Some just don't let there ego get in the way.

This is the way it should be though. But, some have an ego and others keep on learning and improving their products no matter where the improvement idea comes from.Their gain and the others loss.

 

[MinusTheBear]

First and foremost, I sincerely thank all who have posted on this thread. I appreciate your candor and passion.

I made my original post because I am seriously considering buying Axiom Speakers (again) for my new home. After reading about some issues, I wanted to try and make sure Axiom still offers a good product and is customer oriented. I am getting up a little in my years and hate to deal with BS issues (like QA issues).

A large part of my decision to stay with Axiom is; my wife has grown accustomed to the look of the QS-8’s-especially since they can be color customized to blend in with our (her) décor. The mains (and center speaker) are in a (heaven forbid) custom built cabinet behind cabinets doors covered in guitar speaker cloth.

I have never heard (or read a review on) an Axiom sub. Personally, I find them too expensive and won’t spend time on something I can’t (or won’t) afford. I own a HSU and am very happy with it. If I ever need another sub I’ll probably buy another HSU.

I have some hearing issues-especially the higher frequencies, from playing guitar in various bands for a little over two decades.

In closing, I value this Site. I look to this Site for advice and suggestions. I merely got a little confused from some of the information I read.

All is good, now.

Thanks again,

TW

Your not likely to run into QA problems with their speakers. Their electronics are not the most reliable IMO, mainly the DSP subwoofer amps and the class-d power amp they previously sold. If you are comfortable with purchasing more speakers I say go for it. One thing Axiom certainly does is stand behind their product with support if you run into problems.

 

[gene]

First and foremost, I sincerely thank all who have posted on this thread. I appreciate your candor and passion.

I made my original post because I am seriously considering buying Axiom Speakers (again) for my new home. After reading about some issues, I wanted to try and make sure Axiom still offers a good product and is customer oriented. I am getting up a little in my years and hate to deal with BS issues (like QA issues).

A large part of my decision to stay with Axiom is; my wife has grown accustomed to the look of the QS-8’s-especially since they can be color customized to blend in with our (her) décor. The mains (and center speaker) are in a (heaven forbid) custom built cabinet behind cabinets doors covered in guitar speaker cloth.

I have never heard (or read a review on) an Axiom sub. Personally, I find them too expensive and won’t spend time on something I can’t (or won’t) afford. I own a HSU and am very happy with it. If I ever need another sub I’ll probably buy another HSU.

I have some hearing issues-especially the higher frequencies, from playing guitar in various bands for a little over two decades.

In closing, I value this Site. I look to this Site for advice and suggestions. I merely got a little confused from some of the information I read.

All is good, now.

Thanks again,

TW

HSU subs are a better value than Axiom subs IMO. If you already have an HSU sub it makes sense to purchase another identical HSU sub and orient them as we recommend in our tech articles for better bass distribution in your room.

If you already have Axiom surrounds and the wife likes the look continue on getting matching Axiom speakers. You will appreciate the elevated treble response inherent with Axiom speakers to counter some of your hearing loss.

Axiom speakers QC has always been solid from my experience. If you receive a damaged or problematic speaker, their customer service is top notch. They used to offer a 5% discount on packages for Audioholics readers but not sure if they are doing that now. You may want to check when you call them.

Good luck.

 

[Adam]

They used to offer a 5% discount on packages for Audioholics readers....

If they know what we're reading, maybe it's 10% now...

 

[ichigo]

I think one of the main problems with Axiom is that they appear not to care too much about cone resonance, which goes counter to traditional speaker design.

Companies that use metal drivers often aggressively try to push down cone resonance with steep crossover filters.

Axiom on the other hand, likes to to go full commando; the Axiom M3 for example simply let's the midbass cone roll off naturally by itself with no filtering at all, basically going right in the face of normal speaker design.

Some people would call this "nontraditional design." Others would call this "cutting costs".

 

[MinusTheBear]

I think one of the main problems with Axiom is that they appear not to care too much about cone resonance, which goes counter to traditional speaker design.

Companies that use metal drivers often aggressively try to push down cone resonance with steep crossover filters.

Axiom on the other hand, likes to to go full commando; the Axiom M3 for example simply let's the midbass cone roll off naturally by itself with no filtering at all, basically going right in the face of normal speaker design.

Some people would call this "nontraditional design." Others would call this "cutting costs".

It limits the output of the speaker as well. I noticed with the NRC graphs measurements were only taken at 90db on the M3. Similar priced speakers like the ascend acoustics 170 show additional measurements at 95db. Not only is the 170 a more linear speaker with better off-axis it can also play louder. Its amazing how a similar priced bookshelf speaker can be designed so differently especially in its crossover. If the NRC graphs don't show an additional measurement at 95db that is because distortion is ramped up that higher output level.


Just look at the dramatic difference in the crossover design.

170

M3

 

[gene]

I think one of the main problems with Axiom is that they appear not to care too much about cone resonance, which goes counter to traditional speaker design.

Sadly a lot of crossover issues and design implementations like speakers operating in their break up mode won't show up in a steady state frequency response sweep. This is why more elaborate measurements at various power levels and exhaustive listening tests are required to get a full picture on loudspeaker performance.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Sadly a lot of crossover issues and design implementations like speakers operating in their break up mode won't show up in a steady state frequency response sweep. This is why more elaborate measurements at various power levels and exhaustive listening tests are required to get a full picture on loudspeaker performance.

If you look at the NRC measurements on various axiom towers and bookshelf models they only show THD +N w/ frequency at 90db and no deviation from linearity measurement (compression as SPL increased) except on their flagship M80. If the speaker starts stressing at 95db they won't post that additional measurement

http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html

 

[ichigo]

If you look at the NRC measurements on various axiom towers and bookshelf models they only show THD +N w/ frequency at 90db and no deviation from linearity measurement (compression as SPL increased) except on their flagship M80. If the speaker starts stressing at 95db they won't post that additional measurement

http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html

Those measurements are just FR plots. A spectral decay plot, plus a breakdown of the different orders of THD would tell a lot more.