Why separate on/off buttons on remotes?

[Davidt1]

I hate remotes with separate on/off buttons. I have to program an on macro and an off macro for my receiver because of this. Tvs and dvd players have only one on/off button. Why aren't all receiver built this way (Sony and JVC receivers are the exception.) Things could be so much simpler if the original remote has just one on/off button. Then only one macro is needed for both on and off function. I love my HK 320, but I won't buy another HK or any other receiver that has a remote with separate on/off buttons for that matter.

 

[Hi Ho]

My receiver has seperate on/off buttons but my Harmony remote handles them without even involving me. I just press an activity button to turn things on and press off to turn everything off.

 

[MDS]

If you have a single on/off button that means the device's power on/off code is a toggle. If it is on and you press power, it turns off. If it is off and you press power, it turns on. That creates havoc for macros. What if you want a macro to switch to the dvd input and turn on the dvd player but the dvd player is already on - when the power command for the dvd player is sent it will turn off and now you are out of sync.

The Harmony remotes try to remember the state of each component. So in the above example, if its state is on, the remote won't send it the power code. It's very easy to get out of sync anyway. Like if you move the remote before all the commands are sent or someone walks in front of the beam. That's why the Harmony includes 'help' where you can manually tell it the state of each of the devices so it can update its internal state. It's a hack.

The solution to all of this is discrete codes - one code, one command. If you have discrete on and off, then when the device is on and you send it an on, it does nothing because it is already on.

Having separate on/off buttons on the remote is to accomodate discrete power codes. My remote is programmed with a system on macro that turns everything on (the 'on' button) and another to turn everything off (the 'off' button). Likewise, my macro to switch from cable to dvd will not turn off the dvd player if it is already on because the player has discrete on and off commands, just like the receiver.

If you only have toggle power codes, just program both on and off with the same power code. It doesn't really matter because when the system is on you can press the on button to turn it off anyway.

 

[j_garcia]

What MDS said! You WANT separate codes for macros.

 

[Davidt1]

I think MDS disagrees with me, but his last paragraph states what I am trying to say. I have a URC-100 remote with separate on/off buttons and lets me program macros to my heart's content. But I am a simple and laze guy. For example, when I want to watch a movie, I just want to hit one button to turn on the receiver and the dvd player. When I am done, I hit the same button to turn everything off (if my receiver's remote has one on/off button.) Right now I have to program one 'on' macro and one 'off' macro on the on/off buttons on the URC remote to do this. And that's more work to me.

 

[j_garcia]

Then you may want to consier one of the Harmony remotes.

 

[MDS]

For example, when I want to watch a movie, I just want to hit one button to turn on the receiver and the dvd player. When I am done, I hit the same button to turn everything off (if my receiver's remote has one on/off button.) Right now I have to program one 'on' macro and one 'off' macro on the on/off buttons on the URC remote to do this. And that's more work to me.

If your receiver and dvd player only have toggle power commands then the same macro you programmed to the 'on' button will also turn everything off. If the receiver has only a toggle power command but the dvd player has discrete codes for on and off, then of course you need two buttons because the 'on' command from the 'on' button will not turn the dvd player off.

Being lazy is fine. We are all lazy. That's why we have universal remotes in the first place. I just don't understand how it is more 'work' to press the 'off' button to turn everything off - it's still one button press. It does take an extra 10 seconds to program the second macro, but come on...

 

[Hi Ho]

I think MDS disagrees with me, but his last paragraph states what I am trying to say. I have a URC-100 remote with separate on/off buttons and lets me program macros to my heart's content. But I am a simple and laze guy. For example, when I want to watch a movie, I just want to hit one button to turn on the receiver and the dvd player. When I am done, I hit the same button to turn everything off (if my receiver's remote has one on/off button.) Right now I have to program one 'on' macro and one 'off' macro on the on/off buttons on the URC remote to do this. And that's more work to me.

Like J Garcia said, the Harmony remotes do this automatically. The macros set themselves up according to your preferences. If you don't like the automaitcally set ones you can make your own or expand on them.

 

[Davidt1]

Ok, I get it now. Discrete codes are better.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Discrete codes aren't even mildly better. They make or break the quality of some equipment.

Imagine you are in another room of your home, or you are using an IR repeater system and your receiver and cable box are behind closed doors. You press the 'on' button and the macro begins.

TV power toggle (tv turns on - you see that)
Receiver power toggle (receiver turns on... you think)
Cable box power toggle (cable box turns OFF - you have no clue)

Great, now all you have to do is get up, walk over, turn the cable box back on manually, then you can go back and sit in your comfy chair.

What in the world inspires someone to think that a ON button and a OFF button is somehow more work than being confused about the power status of a piece of equipment?!? What pains me is that Philips, the manufacturer of Pronto touch screen remotes, doesn't even include discrete power on their own products! Unbelievable!

Many products, like Sony VCRs and plasmas, include both. Your remote only has a power toggle button, but there is also a discrete function to turn the device on or off specifically.

Yamaha A/V receivers I believe are this way as well.

 

[MDS]

Ah, but it gets worse. Some equipment supports discrete codes but the manufacturer doesn't include them on the remote they supply with the equipment. Sony is a prime example. Their TVs have always supported discretes but sometimes they don't include them on the remote. Onkyo is another example. The 501 receiver's remote had the single toggle power button but the 502's remote has a separate on and standby(off) button. The 502 remote's off will turn off the 501 so why didn't they include it on the remote that shipped with the receiver??

With the growing complexity of HT equipment I think the manufacturers are starting to get with the program and support discrete codes for all of their devices.

 

[Hi Ho]

The 501 receiver's remote had the single toggle power button but the 502's remote has a separate on and standby(off) button. The 502 remote's off will turn off the 501 so why didn't they include it on the remote that shipped with the receiver??

It may not have had seperate buttons but it still may have sent seperate on/off codes. A universal remote could still take advantage of it as well.

 

[MDS]

It may not have had seperate buttons but it still may have sent seperate on/off codes. A universal remote could still take advantage of it as well.

Uh, no. The remote cannot read your mind and know that you want on or off and it cannot ask the receiver its current power state. Even the Harmony's 'smart state' doesn't work that way. I can show the 10 or so lines of code it takes to implement 'smart state'.

 

[Hi Ho]

You have a point. Yes, "Smart State" isn't all that smart but it works pretty damn well. All it does is remember what it has turned on or off. If you press an activity button while covering the IR emitter then it gets messed up. The Help button does get it back on track, however.