Why sell a high end older receiver w no HDMI, get a processor!?

M

mibson

Audioholic
Im looking at buying a used Yamaha RX V1. Then adding a Emotiva processor to it.

Am I missing somthing? Why do so many good receivers go up for sale very cheap just because they dont have HDMI?

I want to make sure Im not missing some technical aspect of this idea....

Note: I have reposted this question because my previous post was drifting through so many various topics....(not trying to SPAM).
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
I think it's because they don't have HDMI.
lol, not sure if you are being sarcastic...

Processors do have HDMI. Im trying to figure out if Im missing something technical that Im not aware of...
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Fine, fine, I'll try to..say... something.... more useful...

1) Not many people like to use receivers specifically for their amp section. If someone's using a receiver, it's because it's an integrated amp with all sorts of tuner abilities etc. However by virtue of being different electronics shoved into a box, it's going to be an inherently flawed device. Remember those old apple computers with "green color" monitors and the giant floppy disk all in one box? Aren't we glad we let monitor companies sell monitors and computer companies sell computers? Granted, it's a bit different in the case of amplifiers, receivers, and processors, but the idea is that each of those things is built for a purpose. In modern day terms, a receiver, even a high end one, is an all-in-one printer equivalent. It just won't print at the level of the best printer, it won't scan at the level of the best printer, and it won't fax at the level of... wait faxing is a joke do people still do this?

2) Now what you seem to be suggesting is using a dated but higher end receiver, but in order to get some features you need, you wish to pair it with a processor to handle modern features like DSP, EQ, and HDMI audio.

The problem with this is that a higher end receiver is still not a higher end amp. Its other sections will introduce noise into the equation. This in turn defeats the silence offered by a great prepro. its amps won't compete with a true separate amp.

What value is using the yamaha for its amplifier when there's better amplifiers out there that are made to amplify.

Replacing a dated receiver with a more modern, more functional receiver makes sense for financial reasons.

Adding a modern processor to a dated receiver will work, but it'll be bottlenecked. That right there is the issue.

If you're trying to save money, go ahead and add a processor and use the yamaha's 6 channel analogue ins. But don't expect to get the most out of the processor purchase.

Now back to your question of "Why sell it instead of doing what you're suggesting."

Because it basically costs the same amount - actually generally less - to get a processor that it does to get a receiver. The value of a processor is only experienced if you've got a wonderful separate amplifier to pair it with, otherwise a brand new receiver, or even a cheap receiver like the Marantz SR5003 refurbs, are just much better bang-for-buck.

Processors are for people who want to go all-out. If you can afford 250 for the yamaha, why not just spend 370 on the SR5003? You're getting a receiver that can handle anything modern thrown at it outside of height channels and 3D. At least you're getting HDMI 1.3 and the amp section is still robust enough for most people at 90wpc. You're also getting 7 channels of amp instead of 6.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Im looking at buying a used Yamaha RX V1. Then adding a Emotiva processor to it.

Am I missing somthing? Why do so many good receivers go up for sale very cheap just because they dont have HDMI?

I want to make sure Im not missing some technical aspect of this idea....

Note: I have reposted this question because my previous post was drifting through so many various topics....(not trying to SPAM).
Bad idea all round.

You can't directly access the power amps of a receiver. In any event, my objection to a receivers is their power amps. That is the receiver weak link,

So you will have to connect to the analog ins of a receiver. This is still stacking a pre amp section. Your signal to nose ratio will be in the basement, to say nothing of the fact you will have two volume controls.

The weakness of voltage gain pre amps is head room, so you will have to carefully set the volume of the processor to avoid clipping the front end of the receiver.

This is a nightmare hookup with nothing to recommend it.

Next issue is make sure Emotiva have got over stability issues with the soft ware of that unit. I know it has been a less than stellar performer, so beware of that two.

By all means get a pre pro, and start collecting good older power amps, but not old receivers.
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
Thanks thats the info I needed.
I should add that I have a Emo UPA-2 to use also.

I guess what Im thinking is, this would at least permit me to get a center channel going. I have 2.0 right now. I would be using the yamaha to power the surrounds and center. If I only spent $250 on the receiver I could afford the PSB C-4 center soon.

But the setup issue is what I needed to know. I figured a high end receiver like this would have some sort of "amp only function"; I guess not.

For $250 it seemed like a good idea to get me, mayee still is since my plan would be to use the older Yamaha for a modest basment music system after I get all the power amps and the processor I want for my surround system, but that will take a few years of saving cash. I really went with the idea to spend all my cash on 2 good speakers since 2.0 music is my priority; but no center channel really sucks for movies.

Since I have 4ohm speakers (PSB T8) and even the upa-2 is a bit low on power at higher volumes, it does limit cheeper receiver choices.
 
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O

oppman99

Senior Audioholic
Bad idea all round.
Next issue is make sure Emotiva have got over stability issues with the soft ware of that unit. I know it has been a less than stellar performer, so beware of that two.

By all means get a pre pro, and start collecting good older power amps, but not old receivers.
With the latest firmware, it seems most of the issues with the UMC have been fixed. Where most people seem to run into problems is with a cable box. Depending on your use, this may or not be a problem. I don't have a cable box and have been using the UMC relatively bug free for months. I get the occasional audio dropout when using the FF/RW with my Oppo, but other than that, no major issues.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I agree with TLS Guy on this one, and would add the following:
The RX V1 while being a very good AVR has had issues with some channels cutting out. This is due to a small relay positioned on the pre out jack that sticks in the open position. There is a work around, but thought it was worth mentioning.
I been waiting on the UMC-1, but with so many years of delays I may just jump ship on principle. My 2 cents.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Here are a couple of articles I found on teh web about this receiver.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/23/index1.html

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-v1/?mode=model


As you can see, this is when Yamaha was building top quality products at the day. Look at how low the noise floor is on this unit.

Generally, one doesn't use a receiver as the main amplifier because the power supplies don't have the same capacity designed into them as say a seperate amp. This unit appears to have plenty of power though.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Bad idea all round.

You can't directly access the power amps of a receiver. In any event, my objection to a receivers is their power amps. That is the receiver weak link,

So you will have to connect to the analog ins of a receiver. This is still stacking a pre amp section. Your signal to nose ratio will be in the basement, to say nothing of the fact you will have two volume controls.

The weakness of voltage gain pre amps is head room, so you will have to carefully set the volume of the processor to avoid clipping the front end of the receiver.

This is a nightmare hookup with nothing to recommend it.

Next issue is make sure Emotiva have got over stability issues with the soft ware of that unit. I know it has been a less than stellar performer, so beware of that two.

By all means get a pre pro, and start collecting good older power amps, but not old receivers.
Look at these specs TLS. Most seperate amplifiers and pre-amps would cry for such a low noise floor as this unit. This beats most modern amps and preamps today. And power wise, its quite respectable.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=Yamaha+RX-V1+specifications&hl=en&ei=s6_KTI_PJdP9nAftzPjGDw&start=0&sa=N
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, just get a processor + amplifier.

Get a powerful old receiver with 5.1 analog input & 5.1 pre-out if you don't care for HDMI switching at all - if you just have ONE universal player like the Oppo for BD/DVD/SACD/DVD-A/CD. Then you connect the HDMI from the Oppo to your TV and connect the 5.1 analog output from the Oppo to the 5.1 analog input on the old receiver.

Otherwise, just get a processor + amplifier.
 
J

jcl

Senior Audioholic
I think it's more common to do things the other way round. Get a receiver with hdmi and preouts and pair it with a good power amp. There are still great deals for past years Onkyo and Denon mid level recs. These will have a flavor of Audyssey, hdmi, and HD decoding and the amps are adequate, especially for surround duties.

If you really like the Yamaha and desire hdmi you can always just get an hdmi switcher. That would save you several hundred dollars over the emotiva. A stand alone video processor would work too, but probably not save you any money.
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
The RX V1 while being a very good AVR has had issues with some channels cutting out. This is due to a small relay positioned on the pre out jack that sticks in the open position. There is a work around, but thought it was worth mentioning.
QUOTE]

This concerns me I need to find out about this problem and the work around, any links?

Ive decided to buy this RX V1, Ill explain why.

This thread probably made it sound like I wanted to use the rx v1 with a processor as a permanent setup, but it would be a temp setup while I save cash for my permanent setup.

For the next 18 months while I save cash for a processor, power amps, center channel and surround speakers; I can use this RX V1 instead of the 15 year old arcam Im now using as a pre amp only. I will use an optical cable from my ps3 to the rx v1. I will use my UPA-2 to drive my two fronts. I will get to do a fun blind test to check if the rx v1 sounds better on its own for 2.0 than my current setup.

In the end this rx v1 will become the receiver for my more modest 2.0 or mono system for my pc and basement .

Current 2.0 setup:
15 year old arcam xeta2 as a preamp only
upa-2
psb T8s
ps3
(two paradigm atoms and two older 2 way psbs floor standers that sound very good) - not currently in use.
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
I just bought the Yamaha RX V1 for $240. He let me pay him $120 for me to test it for a month and then decide if I want to keep it and pay the other $120.

Im going to do some blind tests now and compare what I think of the sound between (only 2.0 for now)
1)using the yamaha alone without my upa-2
2)using the yamaha as a pre amp with my upa-2
3)using my 15 year old arcam xeta2 as a preamp with the upa-2

Since my arcam xeta2 forces me to use the analog outs on the ps3, I think this is going to prove a good investment. I just bought a optical cable...

Equipment:
PSB T8s
upa-2
ps3
Yamaha RX V1
Arcam xeta2
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I just bought the Yamaha RX V1 for $240. He let me pay him $120 for me to test it for a month and then decide if I want to keep it and pay the other $120.

Im going to do some blind tests now and compare what I think of the sound between (only 2.0 for now)
1)using the yamaha alone without my upa-2
2)using the yamaha as a pre amp with my upa-2
3)using my 15 year old arcam xeta2 as a preamp with the upa-2

Since my arcam xeta2 forces me to use the analog outs on the ps3, I think this is going to prove a good investment. I just bought a optical cable...

Equipment:
PSB T8s
upa-2
ps3
Yamaha RX V1
Arcam xeta2
Good luck n have fun with playing around.

I guess my only tidbits atm are that using analogs vs digital can make a difference. Sometimes because it's the player, and sometimes because it's the preamp. You might not know which is at fault particularly, but you will know at least the specific combo is no good.

The other is that you should try to do your best in level matching. I would use pen/paper and test tones. Right down the respective levels. Use these levels with either combo.

EDIT: Ok I guess my warning has to do more with when using analogs. If digital sounds bad, then it points to the preamp. Yamaha has a very good rep for clean preamps, though I don't know if all of them pass with flying colors.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
This is still stacking a pre amp section. Your signal to nose ratio will be in the basement, to say nothing of the fact you will have two volume controls.

The weakness of voltage gain pre amps is head room, so you will have to carefully set the volume of the processor to avoid clipping the front end of the receiver.
excellent point!
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Well you may not need HDMI, but it's a lot easier with it.
 
M

mibson

Audioholic
Yes, I do want HDMI and I will get it eventually. But my plan was:

Since I live in Canada shipping from Emotiva gets more expensive.

Get a processor - Perhaps Emotiva $700
use my upa-2 for rear surrounds (free I already have it)
buy a xpa-2 for the fronts ~$800
buy a upa-1 for the center channel ~$400

This RX V1 for $240 will get me by until I can afford other gear.

No time to do tests until this weekend...
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, I do want HDMI and I will get it eventually. But my plan was:

Since I live in Canada shipping from Emotiva gets more expensive.

Get a processor - Perhaps Emotiva $700
use my upa-2 for rear surrounds (free I already have it)
buy a xpa-2 for the fronts ~$800
buy a upa-1 for the center channel ~$400

This RX V1 for $240 will get me by until I can afford other gear.

No time to do tests until this weekend...

If you can't afford other great right now, get a modern-ish receiver and forego a processor, just like I mentioned earlier. Then save up and get all those amplifiers and use the receiver as a pre.

Once you've got enough amplification that none of your receiver's amp channels are being used, you can do what you will with the receiver and switch to a genuine dedicated pre. Getting a receiver to use as an amp makes much less sense than getting a receiver to use as a pre.

You can probably even find yamaha b-stock somewhere.
 
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