Why not subs with outboard amps?

Forsooth

Forsooth

Audioholic
I am unknowledgeable about subwoofers and I have never owned one. When I read threads about subs, one of the most common causes of failure is the internal amplifier dies.

All the best sounding and selling subs have internal amps. It would seem that an companion outboard amp could easily be replaced, plugged in, and the user would be good to go for another few years (hopefully).

I know there is a good reason that this is not done by makers of subs. Why not?

Thanks!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Most customers do not want that, for whatever reason. I think manufacturers would rather not have it either, so customers don't try to use a different amp and then kill the woofer. Having a plate amp gives the manufacturers more control and more protection against dumb owners.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am unknowledgeable about subwoofers and I have never owned one. When I read threads about subs, one of the most common causes of failure is the internal amplifier dies.

All the best sounding and selling subs have internal amps. It would seem that an companion outboard amp could easily be replaced, plugged in, and the user would be good to go for another few years (hopefully).

I know there is a good reason that this is not done by makers of subs. Why not?

Thanks!
Using an outboard amp means it will have to be put somewhere other than where the sub is, which usually means it's either in a place where it's annoying or it will be in/near the rest of the equipment and farther from the sub, itself. Higher power sent to a speaker means the cable needs to be heavier, losses can be greater and performance may suffer.

I would like more standardization of plate amp sizes- that would facilitate swapping for comparison or upgrading without modifying the cabinet and/or killing the warranty.

...and if people see this question, it's highly likely that you will create another online debate about which cable will make life worth living (or, not), which we don't need. :D
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Good points already.
SVS used to do this with their CS subwoofers. For many people, it would be ideal.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I don't know that all "best sounding" subs have internal amps necessarily altho the plate amp certainly is the most common offering now. I prefer my amps outboard and do so when I build my own. Doesn't seem to be all that popular for the commercial offerings these days though, seems more a custom request now. Some offer better quality plate amps than others, fwiw.
 
Forsooth

Forsooth

Audioholic
Good points already.
SVS used to do this with their CS subwoofers. For many people, it would be ideal.
Would be better for me, I think. The amp could be screwed onto the back of the sub and removed/replaced by the owner in case a repair or replacement is necessary. The 75-pound sub would just stay where it is.

Possibly, the sub amp becomes just another component that could be swapped out at will to achieve some new result...? Ha!
 
Forsooth

Forsooth

Audioholic
I don't know that all "best sounding" subs have internal amps necessarily altho the plate amp certainly is the most common offering now. I prefer my amps outboard and do so when I build my own. Doesn't seem to be all that popular for the commercial offerings these days though, seems more a custom request now. Some offer better quality plate amps than others, fwiw.
Yeah, by "best sounding" I should have said "most advertised and most reviewed" subs. I don't know a lot about subwoofer makers. Are there some that take custom requests? Just curious.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Pretty sure Deep Sea Sound subs can be ordered with rack style SpeakerPower amps. Seaton and Funk would be worthy of contacting, too. There's always DIY :)

Yeah, by "best sounding" I should have said "most advertised and most reviewed" subs. I don't know a lot about subwoofer makers. Are there some that take custom requests? Just curious.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Would be better for me, I think. The amp could be screwed onto the back of the sub and removed/replaced by the owner in case a repair or replacement is necessary. The 75-pound sub would just stay where it is.

Possibly, the sub amp becomes just another component that could be swapped out at will to achieve some new result...? Ha!
This can be performed already. Switching out a plate amp is about a 5 minute job. As far as new results, that’s not really (IMO) a thing to a achieve. Subs are designed with the driver, cabinet and amp together, so there’s not much to gain.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Interchangeability of amps is generally not desirable for a subwoofer.

All of the major subwoofer companies select the amplifier to ensure reliability of their subs. By that, I mean the amp is designed/selected to match the parameters of the driver and usually has some type of limiter to ensure that neither the sub nor the driver is overloaded.
Also some form of EQ is often applied (part of the plate amp unit) to improve performance.

Most of the major subwoofers are damn near bullet-proof. Tom V. of PSA said (not an exact quote) "Don't take it as a personal challenge, but it would be hard to blow one of our subs". I think SVS, Hsu, Rythmik would probably tell you the same.

When Jman reviewed the lowly ~$130 Dayton Audio SUB 1200, he was impressed at how, when pushed to its limits, it did not make any nasty sounds or lose composure:
Since the SUB-1200 seemed virtually impervious to deleterious behavior I decided to push it with some of the most demanding blu-rays in my collection. To my utter surprise it held its head high and said "no, I will not falter". Most of the really torturous movies I watched weren't quite as fulfilling as they've been with some other subwoofers in the past, but this 'cheapie' never put a foot wrong. In retrospect I probably should have chosen different test material; gut-wrenching bass is not this subwoofers forte, yet I treated it as though it was. To a certain extent it almost became a quest to see if I could make the SUB-1200 lose composure, but I was ultimately never able to do that. It's almost bullet proof in that regard, and I tip my hat to Dayton Audio because of it.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

So I read this as the sub/amp combination is such that the sub will play as loud as it can, without losing it's sh!t! You can turn the volume up more, but instead of damaging anything, it will stay limited to the maximum power level it can reliably maintain.

So, if I had a SUB 1200 and the amp died (and amps are more prone to failure that speaker drivers, unless you blow the speaker with too much power), I would very much want to use the same amp!

You can probably set up an iNuke 6000 with DSP to perform similarly, but it would take some knowledge and testing that the average Joe is not going to be quick to take on, and sometimes learning by experience can be expensive.

Also, the plate amp really isn't difficult to deal with - usually 12-20 screws and 2 to 6 wire disconnects and your amp is "free" of the sub.
Here is a post from a guy who recently had an amp failure:
I recently had one of my SVS SB2000 subs stop playing and contacted SVS to see what, if anything, could be done to fix it. The sub is a few years old, but to my surprise, everything was covered under warranty. I called on a Friday morning, they had me run a few diagnostics and determined the amp was bad. By the following Wednesday, I had a replacement amp which I was able to easily swap in. No need to send the entire sub back. I paid for the amp up front, but the cost was refunded when they received the old amp back which was shipped back in the same box that the new amp came in. Shipping was also paid by SVS. I will definitely buy from them in the future.
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/hats-off-to-svs-customer-service.111075/#post-1245494

If the company you bought your sub from requires you to return the entire sub (you pay for round trip shipping) for repair without doing any troubleshooting; I feel like they are using the cost of shipping as a means to get out of their warranty claims.

While I can understand you desire for the ability to choose your amp, I think the reasons to stick with the original design far outweigh the benefit of being able to swap out your own amplification!

Edit: William's post (#9) was made while I was typing which makes mine somewhat redundant, but I did provide deeper details!:)
 
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Forsooth

Forsooth

Audioholic
Interchangeability of amps is generally not desirable for a subwoofer.

All of the major subwoofer companies select the amplifier to ensure reliability of their subs. By that, I mean the amp is designed/selected to match the parameters of the driver and usually has some type of limiter to ensure that neither the sub nor the driver is overloaded.
Also some form of EQ is often applied (part of the plate amp unit) to improve performance.

Most of the major subwoofers are damn near bullet-proof. Tom V. of PSA said (not an exact quote) "Don't take it as a personal challenge, but it would be hard to blow one of our subs". I think SVS, Hsu, Rythmik would probably tell you the same....<snip>...
Kurt, wow, thanks for that detailed response. I was not aware that there was this much tolerance and flexibility built into subs (vis-a-vis the customer side). I thought that, essentially, subs are constructed as a "brick" -- all one piece, as it were, and without the capability for owner intervention. But this is not true, at least in the case of SVS subs and, most likely, with many other makers as well.

I wonder why the makers don't talk about or advertise this type of "modularity." I have watch a lot of sub vids on Youtube and visited several internet sites for manufacturers, but I've missed this specific discussion, i.e., "what happens when something goes wrong..." Risk-averse buyers like me are always asking that type of question.

Also, I see what you are talking about regarding amplifier specifications made especially to protect the woofer(s) they serve. So, yes, I can agree that the typical buyer needs to let the manufacturer make those kinds of decisions.

And, lastly, I saw the thread regarding SVS customer service, but thought it was only someone reaching with some appreciation, but I now see that it could have helped me in its specifics.

Cheers!
 
Forsooth

Forsooth

Audioholic
This can be performed already. Switching out a plate amp is about a 5 minute job. As far as new results, that’s not really (IMO) a thing to a achieve. Subs are designed with the driver, cabinet and amp together, so there’s not much to gain.
Thanks - got the posts from you and Kurt and now am aware of this. Thanks for posting.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Having a sub built with a particular amp/dsp in mind is a bit different than repairing a sub with a different amp than it was designed for, but not something that can't be overcome.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I like the separate sub amp. Is the only way I could afford to try so many different drivers and enclosure types for my space while learning what I actually prefer, instead of the one size almost fits all situation. Also, a more incremental DSP function, all workable from my PC from the listening position.

I own 5 subwoofers and am probably in the moneyhood of what one reputable, self contained sub costs. What I have now is, multiple, more closely matched, sub/speaker systems that I can plug in here or elsewhere in the house.

The separate amps like the Behringer, are pro gear so they are portable and connectivity is portable as well, and is just a lot of fun to do. As far as remote cabling, there needs to be a cable to the AVR/preamp anyway, unless it's wireless. Also, the separate eliminates an additional, often lengthy power cord, so it's kind of the same, really.

The separate amp has filters and limiting circuits in which to safely operate in a driver's specific range.

I reckon my preference fits the DIY program a bit better. Much of the time, you can discover what manufacturer's driver some of the big names are using and custom fit it to your own application for pennies on the dollar in many cases, or, at least when thinking in terms of multiple subwoofers.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The separate amp has filters and limiting circuits in which to safely operate in a driver's specific range.
I've always wondered ... for you DIY guys, how do you determine where to set the limiter?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I've always wondered ... for you DIY guys, how do you determine where to set the limiter?
It's determined by the box design, driver xmax and power handling capabilities etc. There is some tolerances in there, which I usually reside on the safe side of. First and foremost, I choose drivers with some headroom to start with.

With the Behringer, you set the load (ohms) and the peak. Then you have the indicator lights and the meter on the pc to tell you where you are operating at real time.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Don't really need one for a sealed sub unless you have more amp/eq than is good for the driver....for ported subs you generally set a protective high pass filter just below tuning...but seems Mr Boat has beat me to it generally...
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Don't really need one for a sealed sub unless you have more amp/eq than is good for the driver....for ported subs you generally set a protective high pass filter just below tuning...but seems Mr Boat has beat me to it generally...
I usually don't have to bother with my sealed, even though my amp exceeds the drivers because I am operating well below. I do typically set one though because it's right there. In this case, I had set it in the saved programs I use initially just for the heck of it. Even if I slip with the mouse and inadvertently set the gain to +12, it may just trip the first clip indicator light and could actually operate safely there still.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I usually don't have to bother with my sealed, even though my amp exceeds the drivers because I am operating well below. I do typically set one though because it's right there. In this case, I had set it in the saved programs I use initially just for the heck of it. Even if I slip with the mouse and inadvertently set the gain to +12, it may just trip the first clip indicator light and could actually operate safely there still.
Yeah, I rely more on my max volume setting in the avr than setting a limit on my sub amps, and more on my own use of the master volume control. I rarely get it to the clipping point these days. I'm the only one who uses my gear, too.
 
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