why have towers if you have a sub as well?

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Bevan

Audioholic
i've been wondering this for a long time, what could be the reasons for choosing floorstanders over bookshelfs if one has a sub and plans to cross over at thx recommended 80hz and run the fronts as "small"

seems a lot of people go this route. arent the only reason for chosing floorstanders negated? wouldnt bookshelves do the same job, and cheeper if they can reach down to say 50hz? (and better as they usually have an an advantage in imaging?)

curious,

bevan
 
S

silversurfer

Senior Audioholic
I am in total agreement with you.

Here is a quote from a post over at AVS that I could not have worded any better:

"I'm still amazed at the number of 'philes who turn off their subwoofer (a vile, evil, rumbling manifestation of that filthy, pedestrian medium...multichannel sound) in order to *correctly* experience pure sound. Apparently, some still think bass extension detracts from the listening experience.

I draw no distinction between music and movie soundtracks when it comes to subwoofers. A good sub, well placed and calibrated, contributes to the accuracy of the system. Using a crossover, excess excursion is mostly removed from the main speakers, further cleaning the midrange. A powered sub with highpassed fronts also leaves more power for the mains. In addition, the best placement for the fronts is never the best placement for a subwoofer, other than in the area of coherency at the crossover point.

Good comments from AcuraCL, BTW. The smaller baffle of a "bookshelf" speaker can contribute to better imaging than a larger speaker."


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=547214
 
P

Privateer

Full Audioholic
There are more important things then bass in an audio speaker.
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
In my experience the answer would be no. I brought home some Sonus Faber Concertino Homes to audition & they are a fabulous speaker with wonderful imaging..............at low to average volume. Upon turning up the volume a bit it sounded as though I was losing the high bass-low mids a little. I tinkered with them for a couple of weeks & that was the conclusion I came to.

Again, just my experience with those speakers (which are about $1k/pair).
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
what could be the reasons for choosing floorstanders over bookshelfs if one has a sub and plans to cross over at thx recommended 80hz and run the fronts as "small"
Some will argue a floorstander with a two way crossover will reproduce frequencies better than a bookshelf with a one way crossover. When you are able to separate the frequency band three ways as opposed to two (assuming you have a three way tower), you are asking less of the drivers to reproduce all frequencies above 80Hz. You'll really notice it when a two way bookshelf is crossed over too high. The small woofer may have issues trying to reproduce 80Hz as well as 1200Hz at the same time. A dedicated midrange found in a three way tower won't suffer those issues.

seems a lot of people go this route. arent the only reason for chosing floorstanders negated? wouldnt bookshelves do the same job, and cheeper if they can reach down to say 50hz? (and better as they usually have an an advantage in imaging?)
Again, the issue isn't how low the bookshelf will go moreso than how it reproduces the midrange. Some bookshelves use very high end midwoofers that reproduce midbass as well as midrange, as seen on your more expensive center channels.

The best way to tell is to demo a certain mfg's bookshelf, then demo their tower speaker along side it (assuming it has a two way crossover). If you can't tell the difference, then go with the bookshelf and save a boatload of money.

Great question BTW.
 
B

BobbyT

Junior Audioholic
One other thing that some have to consider which has nothing to do with sound. Like in my case. I have a 2 year old. As she has already proven with my surrounds, 2 year olds and bookshelves on stands do not mix well. As soon as my new towers come in the current ones are replaceing the bookshelves. Are towers overkill for surround duty? Probably. Will they be sent crashing down? nope :D
 
P

Privateer

Full Audioholic
Are towers overkill for surround duty?
You could run $20,000 surrounds if you want because nothing is overkill in audio.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
Privateer said:
You could run $20,000 surrounds if you want because nothing is overkill in audio.
.....but wouldn't that depend on the level you inhabit in this hobby, Privateer, usually based on how long you've been in it?....and it seems to me to be a hobby, whatcha' think?....and it hain't cheap, air it?.....Privateer, how long have you been in this home-audio hobby?....and if you would, tell us about your center speaker....what do you hear from it that you didn't hear from others before it....describe timbre's, and imaging/point, and stuff.....

.....you speak short, I like that....try to stretch one a little, though....you act like you don't care what people think....does it bother you to post a little longer stuff?....we want to learn more about better equipment....tell us about your whole system if you would, and I may mail you some bbq sauce, dead serious....went light on the ground bat wings this load....I'm 56, what age are you?....isn't this view of the ocean neat?....(sip).....
 
Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
Can we please shut-up about privateer's center channel. its been done to death in another thread.
 
P

Privateer

Full Audioholic
BobbyT asked if "Are towers overkill for surround duty?" and I replied back with a simple comment stating that nothing is overkill in the audio industry, plain and simple.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
Can we please shut-up about privateer's center channel. its been done to death in another thread.
.....go right ahead, Ninja.....
 
cam

cam

Audioholic
I chose the Paradigm monitor 7 floorstanders for many reasons over the standmount mini monitors.

1- they are 3 db more efficient which means they get alot louder with less power.

2- no need to waste money on stands where little ones can easily topple them.

3- if one chooses to listen to music with no sub on, a floorstander (within the same series) should produce more bass.

4- THIS ONE IS MY OPINION- some say that standmounts image better then their matching big brother floorstanders within the same series. Anyone who states this is only trying to convince themselves that buying standmounts was the best decision. I gaurantee that if money was no object, these people who buy Paradigm studio 20's and 40's would most certainly buy studio 60's or maybe even 100's. When the receiver is set up for 80 hz, a Paradigm studio 20 or 40 does not image better then a studio 60. I have listen to many standmounts and floorstanders in the demo room. A floorstander within the same line will lick the standmount everytime. But for most people, if you can only afford the standmount, you will defend your decision as to why the standmount was better then the equivalent floorstander. Most people can only afford the standmount within a certain line of speaker, this is why most people say that you only need a standmount, I say, floorstanders are the right way to go. If by chance a floorstander is overkill for your situation, chances are it is more efficient then its standmount counterpart and when buying an amp, you can save some money by buying a smaller amp. But if you end up buying floorstanders, chances are you are probabely going to buy a bigger amp.
 
O

Ohmage

Audioholic Intern
cam said:
I chose the Paradigm monitor 7 floorstanders for many reasons over the standmount mini monitors.

1- they are 3 db more efficient which means they get alot louder with less power.

2- no need to waste money on stands where little ones can easily topple them.

3- if one chooses to listen to music with no sub on, a floorstander (within the same series) should produce more bass.

4- THIS ONE IS MY OPINION- some say that standmounts image better then their matching big brother floorstanders within the same series. Anyone who states this is only trying to convince themselves that buying standmounts was the best decision. I gaurantee that if money was no object, these people who buy Paradigm studio 20's and 40's would most certainly buy studio 60's or maybe even 100's. When the receiver is set up for 80 hz, a Paradigm studio 20 or 40 does not image better then a studio 60. I have listen to many standmounts and floorstanders in the demo room. A floorstander within the same line will lick the standmount everytime. But for most people, if you can only afford the standmount, you will defend your decision as to why the standmount was better then the equivalent floorstander. Most people can only afford the standmount within a certain line of speaker, this is why most people say that you only need a standmount, I say, floorstanders are the right way to go. If by chance a floorstander is overkill for your situation, chances are it is more efficient then its standmount counterpart and when buying an amp, you can save some money by buying a smaller amp. But if you end up buying floorstanders, chances are you are probabely going to buy a bigger amp.

A month ago, I was at a reputable audio shop in my area auditioning the Paradigm Studio Series. I brought my Hayley Westenra's "Pure" CD for the listening test. The Studio 20's, 40's, and 60's were lined up in an organized pattern, 10 ft. apart per pair, and were allowed to be switched by a press of a button. Audio equipment was the Cambridge Audio Azure 640A/640C integrated amplifier and CD player combo. I played Hayley's rendition of Carl Orff's "In Trutina", track no. 11, because it is of reference quality, and a true test of a speaker's midrange sound and quality. I started off with the 20's: the imaging was superb, with the voice being extremely focused at dead centre. When I switched to the 40's, bass was more evident, but Hayley's voice became less focussed and less clear. The same thing happened when I switched from the 40's to the 60's. There was definitely a transition from better imaging (with less bass) to poorer imaging (with more bass) by going from the 20's to the 40's, then from the 40's to the 60's. Don't get me wrong, the 60's still sounded very good, but it's imaging is significantly worse than the 20's; it was really obvious when I switched directly from the 60's to the 20's.

The sale's person said that people usually do not jump from the 20's to the 40's when they buy; they jump from the 20's to the 60's. The reason for this is because the price of the 40's with stands is almost the same price as the 60's.

The one true strength of a floorstander over a bookshelf is in it's musical dynamics capability. Music through a floorstander is more complete and cohesive, especially when playing music with alot of midbass and alot of overlap between midrange and midbass; the feeling is akin to being consistently poked and jabbed at the gut. This is the biggest reason I would pick a floorstander over a bookshelf. You will not appreciate these dynamics with a bookshelf speaker, even coupled with a subwoofer. Also, it is generally more difficult to make a subwoofer disappear when it is mated with bookshelves due to the higher crossover frequency on the sub; when you can localize the sub, you've destroyed the entire musical experience. Adding a subwoofer to a floorstander would only make the musical experience more enjoyable, because now you can cross the sub frequency really low, enabling it to completely disappear.

Ohmage.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
In general terms, towers = more drivers, which in turn can give you higher SPLs with lower distortion. As a rule, you'll get higher max volume out of a tower, too. Finally, often you find that larger speakers have less dynamic limitations than smaller ones. Now obviously the design will dictate the final performance, but big speakers tend to play loudly without strain through passages that will sound "congested" on small speakers. Many Big Speaker Fans love this "ease" that you get with towers.

Naturally, these are generalizations. YMMV.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
I changed My center channel from the usual small(rated at 65hz-22khz, when I say small I mean smaller than my towers, rated 30hz-25khz) To a tower same as my fronts. Now I have 3 towers up the front, set to small with the sub Xover at 80hz(same as before I changed the speaker)

The biggest difference I found was with dialogue, mostly male voices sound fuller/richer/deeper even with it set to small with the sub Xover at 80hz. Also moving sounds along the front are more realistic.

Now I would never go back to a smaller center or bookshelves(I also have the bookshelves from the same range). IMHO only 3 identical towers(with a dedicated sub) up the front can give you the fullness and depth that is needed to faithfully reproduce what is recorded, especially for movies.

Just my experience,
Cheers:)
 

Attachments

shokhead

shokhead

Audioholic General
BobbyT said:
One other thing that some have to consider which has nothing to do with sound. Like in my case. I have a 2 year old. As she has already proven with my surrounds, 2 year olds and bookshelves on stands do not mix well. As soon as my new towers come in the current ones are replaceing the bookshelves. Are towers overkill for surround duty? Probably. Will they be sent crashing down? nope :D
With towers,you only need to worry about poking a speakers or kicking one in. Your going to have problems with either one and a 2 year old. Good reason to get a tower if the wife bought it. LOL :eek:
 
B

BobbyT

Junior Audioholic
shokhead said:
With towers,you only need to worry about poking a speakers or kicking one in. Your going to have problems with either one and a 2 year old. Good reason to get a tower if the wife bought it. LOL :eek:
The wife is very understanding of my hobby. I keep all of the grills on to prevent little hands and feet from practicing 2yearold fu on my speakers. And just for the record, it will be Klipsch RF7s, RC7 up front. And RF3-IIs moved to the back.

I do fall in the camp of towers are more dynamic than bookshelves. But I don't try to convince anyone else of it. This hobby is about personal preferences.

Now for multi channel SACD and DVDA five idenctical towers would be best.
 
S

silversurfer

Senior Audioholic
As far as bass response is concerned, the best place for floorstanders is rarely the best place for a subwoofer, and vice versa. Seperate them, and you can better optimize the system.
 
T

twochordcool

Junior Audioholic
Privateer said:
You could run $20,000 surrounds if you want because nothing is overkill in audio.
At what price range does it just start getting to be a ridiculous waste of money if you are on a budget and satisfied with very good sound and don't need immaculate sound?

I mean, I know wealthy people can go ballistic with getting the best equipment, but where should the average guy that wants good sound on a middle class budget, w rent/mortgage and a family, draw the line...and not have to get what you guys might consider crap?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
twochordcool said:
I mean, I know wealthy people can go ballistic with getting the best equipment, but where should the average guy that wants good sound on a middle class budget, w rent/mortgage and a family, draw the line...and not have to get what you guys might consider crap?
IMO, the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in VERY rapidly in audio; ie you get incremental gains in power/quality/features for exponential increases in price.

Take receivers for example. The bottom of the line for most brands is around $300, whereas the top of the line runs up to about $3,000. Is the top of the line worth ten times the price when you need a receiver for a normal size family room? Usually not. What you get is dozens of inputs that will go unused, an increase in power that you will not notice (unless you absolutely MUST play your music at ear splitting volumes like you are at a concert), and dozens of 'features' that you aren't likely to use either. Same goes for DVD/CD players. How many people are so critical of video that they absolutely must have a flawless player than can handle poorly mastered discs that don't quite follow the spec? Is it worth it to you to spend $1K on such a player when a $300 player will give you 90% of the quality?

You can achieve great sound on a modest budget if you don't worry about impressing other people (most people equate quality with price). When it comes down to spending $3K on a receiver vs spending $500 for a receiver and putting the balance in an IRA, I think the choice is clear.

Like my good friend J. Jones says 'I am a Jones, and even I don't try to keep up with the Jones'. :)
 
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