Why don’t people like me… I mean Klipsch.

[PENG]

It seems to me that one of the reasons why many speaker companies don't release measurement graphs and charts is because those graphs and charts are too easily doctored to look nice, so if company X puts out some graphs, company Y will look at those graphs and figure out a way to put out some graphs that make their product look better.. I don't think that Klipsch and Aperion are seriously putting out high end products that don't measure well, but there are all kinds of ways to manipulate data to make your product look great and the competition look awful.

I agree, and that's another reason why I think for those measurements and plots to be taken seriously, they need to be conducted or certified by an accredited lab or something like that, by qualified people in an apparent neutral/non biased position.

 

[LAB3]

I agree, and that's another reason why I think for those measurements and plots to be taken seriously, they need to be conducted or certified by an accredited lab or something like that, by qualified people in an apparent neutral/non biased position.

This is why I never worried about graphs and charts other then WPC, Ohmn etc
that lets you match to your amps. It would be great if all the speakers came with a PLOT that was regulated like ISO 9000 etc for Air Craft inspection of parts and hardware for commerical air craft. The fed's charge you to come inspect your LAB to see if you'r co. meets their standards.

 

[PENG]

This is why I never worried about graphs and charts other then WPC, Ohmn etc
that lets you match to your amps. It would be great if all the speakers came with a PLOT that was regulated like ISO 9000 etc for Air Craft inspection of parts and hardware for commerical air craft. The fed's charge you to come inspect your LAB to see if you'r co. meets their standards.

I think we are on the same page here. Not that you mentioned WPC, if you read some of those HTM reviews carefully you will see that even the WPC in those so call lab measurements are questionable in terms of consistency. For example, they showed the Denon AVR-4311 or even the old 3805 did better in the ACD (7 channel) outputs than the obviously more powerful 4810. My guess is that the 4810's protection circuit kicked in sooner and quicker so the AVR yielded something <40WPC vs the 4311's >100WPC, yet they chose to not bother by the underlying reason. For the not well informed readers they could therefore draw a wrong conclusion. Imagine something that is potentially much more complicated such as the waterfall plots, let alone distortions vs frequency that you rarely see being published, if ever. In fact, very few manufacturers even bother mentioning distortion. I know we can look down on B&W's waterfall plots, but they do at least provide some distortion figures, albeit most likely not detailed enough for most audiophiles.

 

[nezff]

I have numerous sets of Klipsch over the years. They are not for everyone. I have never had a single problem with them. They are quality made also, so Im not sure about the comment up top about the quality.

 

[DenPureSound]

I think we are on the same page here. Not that you mentioned WPC, if you read some of those HTM reviews carefully you will see that even the WPC in those so call lab measurements are questionable in terms of consistency. For example, they showed the Denon AVR-4311 or even the old 3805 did better in the ACD (7 channel) outputs than the obviously more powerful 4810. My guess is that the 4810's protection circuit kicked in sooner and quicker so the AVR yielded something <40WPC vs the 4311's >100WPC, yet they chose to not bother by the underlying reason. For the not well informed readers they could therefore draw a wrong conclusion. Imagine something that is potentially much more complicated such as the waterfall plots, let alone distortions vs frequency that you rarely see being published, if ever. In fact, very few manufacturers even bother mentioning distortion. I know we can look down on B&W's waterfall plots, but they do at least provide some distortion figures, albeit most likely not detailed enough for most audiophiles.

KEF has distortion data on their new coming R900 Towers (Dr. Joe D'Appolito driver design layout - like a MTM), have not seen this from many other mfg's. The KEF R900 is a Full 3 Way design with Mag/Alum driver cones, 2nd order Xover, UniQ spinoff from their Blade, four port split enclosure bass reflex design.

KEF International - Showroom - R900

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m) <0.4% 80Hz-20kHz.

BTW, I like your new Avatar, DenPureSound. What is it?

 

[DenPureSound]

Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m) <0.4% 80Hz-20kHz.

BTW, I like your new Avatar, DenPureSound. What is it?

Simply put, the BEST [KEF] -- that is the KEF Tangerine WaveGuide within the UniQ driver supporting the tweeter co-axial mode.

The R Series uses a spin off of the $30K KEF Blade UniQ driver supporting LF and MF.

Did you notice KEF uses Mag/Alum Cones in the R900's not just Aluminum as in the Q900's, and Alum. Wire for Motor Driver vs. Copper. All MAKES sense to support High Transient Dynamic Responses, beyond what the SPL vs. Freq. on/off data shows.

KEF obviously has a lot of Engr. Research going on in their Proprietary Driver Dept.

 

[DenPureSound]

Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m) <0.4% 80Hz-20kHz.

BTW, I like your new Avatar, DenPureSound. What is it?

Those measurements are for the R900 KEF, not the Q900, as the Q Series per KEF have no Harmonic Distortion data. Notice KEF measures their R Series at 90dB, which is the sensitivity of it 90dB/2.83V/1M, all makes Engr. Sense.

 

[DenPureSound]

Harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m) <0.4% 80Hz-20kHz.

BTW, I like your new Avatar, DenPureSound. What is it?

Nice AVATAR, you must have REVEL's -- one of the BEST Speakers in the World for the >$10K range. Looks like Rx -- nice.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Not my quote but though it fit these thread nicely

"I cannot over emphasize the importance of building speakers to the ear rather than a formula."

I totally agree. I this its more important that the speaker sounds good to the user, in the end thats all that matters. Its suppose to be a fun enjoyable hobby, not something to obsessed over. Graphs and charts and measurements can be helpful, but in the end those don't matter the ears do.

 

[robc1976]

I have numerous sets of Klipsch over the years. They are not for everyone. I have never had a single problem with them. They are quality made also, so Im not sure about the comment up top about the quality.

Totally agree with that!

 

[robc1976]

Try aiming the right one further to the left, and the left one further to the right so that they cross even more in front of you rather than at your lap.

I am a bit interested in this, I do NOT have cornwalls (they have a much bigger horn) I have the reference series II and have a 9.1 system...would this work for me as well. I am interested in different toeing in placement. I have my "wides where they basicall go across the listners (I only have 3 seats) and litearlly the tweeters are placed at ear level and the tweeter is aimed at my ears. For my fronts they are aimed about 8" to the sides of my ears so the other seats get good response.

Here is a pic of my system (The foam is being replaced on front wall LOL!!)

 

[GranteedEV]

I am a bit interested in this, I do NOT have cornwalls (they have a much bigger horn) I have the reference series II and have a 9.1 system...would this work for me as well. I am interested in different toeing in placement. [/IMG]

Well, for starters, you need an idea of the speakers' off axis response. The 45 degree toe in is best suited for horn speakers that have a narrowish profile above 1khz, but constant rather than beaming. The goal is to remove the near side reflection, and maximize the the far side reflection. It's intended for a live room for spaciousness and a wide sweet spot rather than a dead room.

Give things a go and see what ya think\.

 

[PENG]

Those measurements are for the R900 KEF, not the Q900, as the Q Series per KEF have no Harmonic Distortion data. Notice KEF measures their R Series at 90dB, which is the sensitivity of it 90dB/2.83V/1M, all makes Engr. Sense.

The Q900 has great freq response curves. How much are the R900 anyway?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Simply put, the BEST [KEF] -- that is the KEF Tangerine WaveGuide within the UniQ driver supporting the tweeter co-axial mode.

The R Series uses a spin off of the $30K KEF Blade UniQ driver supporting LF and MF.

Did you notice KEF uses Mag/Alum Cones in the R900's not just Aluminum as in the Q900's, and Alum. Wire for Motor Driver vs. Copper. All MAKES sense to support High Transient Dynamic Responses, beyond what the SPL vs. Freq. on/off data shows.

KEF obviously has a lot of Engr. Research going on in their Proprietary Driver Dept.

I am a KEF and Revel fanboy.

These big boy companies have some serious research going on there.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Q900 has great freq response curves. How much are the R900 anyway?

That's what I told him too, but he says the R900's will blow away the Q900's.

 

[GranteedEV]

That's what I told him too, but he says the R900's will blow away the Q900's.

I have no doubt about this. The Q900s have a nasty aluminum cone breakup from cost cutting on the crossover - something I suspect sounds really undesirable.

The R900s should have a proper crossover with a trap filter.

 

[DenPureSound]

The Q900 has great freq response curves. How much are the R900 anyway?

The R900's look a lot better than the Q900's FR.

The R900's list at $5,000 per Pair, but right now the availability is very low in the supply chain, and prices are around $3750 or so, but I am sure the prices will come down a little more into the new year.

 

[LAB3]

I have numerous sets of Klipsch over the years. They are not for everyone. I have never had a single problem with them. They are quality made also, so Im not sure about the comment up top about the quality.

Ditto... but I have always purchased the Heritage Series for music. I have added some Reference Series for my HT system and they sound great on HD Bluray movies, but they are not real wood and not even close to the hand made cabinets PWK built.

 

[DenPureSound]

Don't have any problems with all my Klipsch's... just running tired of them, and have Upgraditis for new Accurate, Dynamic, Clean, Low distortion, Clear, Quality front towers that can easily reproduce the mid-range where 80% of the content is.

Looks like to get something along these lines it will be around $4K+ for Two Towers or so.

So many choices, and need many more hours of Auditioning them to determine which is our choice.