Why don’t people like me… I mean Klipsch.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My guess is the customes service reps are not trained good enough to know the answer to your question. Maybe call them during a work day and ask for a Tech Support Manager for a answer. I don't know about what you are talking about either. Off axis tomorrow when the Grand Kids are at school I will Google this.

GranteedEV can explain much better. But we want flat on-axis and flat smooth off-axis (aka polar response).

If we look at the 802D and 800D, we can see that their polar responses are bad even compared to the cheap Infinity P360.

I asked B&W and posted links to Stereophile and asked them if they just don't think the horizontal off-axis response is important.

They said, "The VERTICAL off-axis looks pretty decent to 15 degrees".

I said, "I didn't ask about the vertical off-axis. I asked about the HORIZONTAL off-axis up to 60 degrees, but at least 45 degrees."

Then they blew me off.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think you are right. Since I plan on a speaker upgrade this year I may call their head office in the UK and ask to speak to one of their design engineer. I go to work early anyway so time zone difference is not a big deal for me.

I guess their customer service does not have the courtesy to forward my question to someone more knowledgeable.

Perhaps you will have much better luck than I.

If DenPureSound ask Klipsch about their beloved Palladium speakers, I bet Klipsch would completely ignore him too.

 

[LAB3]

GranteedEV can explain much better. But we want flat on-axis and flat smooth off-axis (aka polar response).

If we look at the 802D and 800D, we can see that their polar responses are bad even compared to the cheap Infinity P360.

I asked B&W and posted links to Stereophile and asked them if they just don't think the horizontal off-axis response is important.

They said, "The VERTICAL off-axis looks pretty decent to 15 degrees".

I said, "I didn't ask about the vertical off-axis. I asked about the HORIZONTAL off-axis up to 60 degrees, but at least 45 degrees."

Then they blew me off.

Could you post a link so I can read what you are talking about? I have owned old 1979 Cornwalls for so long I have not kept up on tech specs on speakers anymore. Old school and have large family I never have much time to read without kids/Grand Kids wanting me to help them or just get on the floor and play cars etc with them. My 6 year old Grand Son Loves watching Blurays over here.. Grand Dad what makes the sound go so Low... too funny. I tried to explain about the 2 subs and the Corwalls 15" woofers.. he said Too Much information. lets watch cars movie and play cars LMAO.
Thanks
Louis

 

[GranteedEV]

GranteedEV can explain much better. But we want flat on-axis and flat smooth off-axis (aka polar response).

In the case of (larger) horns, off axis response is mostly just about the sweet spot, since the reflected sound is pretty low in level that we barely register it. in fact some horns are recommended to be aimed 45 deg so that they cross axes in front of the listener, so that there is some delayed side wall reflection after all.

but the direct response have some issues of its own, which can lead to 'horn honk' or higher frequency coloration.

 

[ski2xblack]

Some actual Klipsch data...

This zombie thread is too funny.

DPS, good luck getting a response from Klipsch. Since you're having such a hard time getting info on their current models, I thought you might enjoy learning about some of the old Heritage speakers. These are some excerpts from an old review (1986, Stereophile, by the late Julian Hirsch, on the Klipsch Forte speaker). The zombie review seems to be in the spirit of this zombie thread. Enjoy!

The numbers:

"...the room response of the Klipsch Forte was one of the widest and smoothest we have ever measured, varying only +/-2db from 230 to 20,000 Hz..."

"...exceptionally uniform beam width..."

"...measurements made at 45 degrees off axis showed appreciable horizontal directivity over most of the audio range. At 30 degrees off-axis, however, the reponse was very close to the on-axis measurement over the full range of the speaker..."

"...the Forte's low-frequency distortion was by far the lowest we have ever measured from a speaker. Measured at the driven cone down to 50 Hz (the effective acoustic crossover to the passive cone) and at the passive cone below that frequency, the distortion was less than 0.2% from 100 to 50 Hz. It rose gently to a mere 1.5% at 23 Hz, which, because of the rapidly falling output of the system, was the lowest frequency for which we could make a measurement..."

And the following subjective impressions from the review:

"...superb octave-to-octave frequency balance, unusually wide extension of both low and high frequencies, and the absence of most of the usual speaker colorations (heavy mid-bass, sharp or dull highs, "honkiness", etc)..."

"...Most of the speakers we test are at least competent performers...but the Klipsch Forte is so outstanding in a number of its characteristics, and good or better in just about all the others, that we cannot pass it off as "just another good speaker." For one thing, it sounded even better than it measured..."

"...the sound had an open, airy quality that contributed markedly to our listening enjoyment..."

"...the bass seemed to reach downward beyond what we have usually experienced with other speakers. In this case it was the measurements that yielded unexpected results...so potent in the region where there is real bass content in music...it adds such a minute amount of bass distortion that gives the impression of generating an octave of bass beyond it's true limit..."

"...It is not easy to be dispassionate about the Klipsch..."

 

[LAB3]

In the case of (larger) horns, off axis response is mostly just about the sweet spot, since the reflected sound is pretty low in level that we barely register it. in fact some horns are recommended to be aimed 45 deg so that they cross axes in front of the listener, so that there is some delayed side wall reflection after all.

but the direct response have some issues of its own, which can lead to 'horn honk' or higher frequency coloration.

I got it.duh. I have moved my Cornwalls around in the corners of every room they have ever been in for years now looking for the sweet spot every time we move or I change rooms. It's like having headphones on in the center of the sofa same with my Heresy II in the bedroom, I have towed in facing the center of the bed with the flat screen in the center. Same thing in the den with the Cornwalls and 5.2 HT system.

 

[GranteedEV]

I got it.duh. I have moved my Cornwalls around in the corners of every room they have ever been in for years now looking for the sweet spot every time we move or I change rooms. It's like having headphones on in the center of the sofa same with my Heresy II in the bedroom, I have towed in facing the center of the bed with the flat screen in the center. Same thing in the den with the Cornwalls and 5.2 HT system.

I didn't quite follow - if you sit in the center, are they toed in behind you, towards you, or in front of you?

Wayne parham describes how to toe horns in properly here on PAGE 7:

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

 

[LAB3]

I didn't quite follow - if you sit in the center, are they toed in behind you, towards you, or in front of you?

Wayne parham describes how to toe horns in properly here on PAGE 7:

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

Sorry in Front of me.. I have my Cornwalls turned in the corners.aimed at the center of the sofa. I will read page 7 ... for my 5.2 HT system in the den the Cornwalls are my front L&R. I just followed the diagram that Klipsch sent with my subs for setting up my 5.2 HT system. But for years I have towed them in or aimed them at my spot on the sofa etc. when I was just playing
muisc. I have owned them from day one. I never realized it was axis etc. I just moved them around until they sounded balanced.

 

[GranteedEV]

I have my Cornwalls turned in the corners.aimed at the center of the sofa. I will read page 7 ... for my 5.2 HT system in the den the Cornwalls are my front L&R.

Try aiming the right one further to the left, and the left one further to the right so that they cross even more in front of you rather than at your lap.

 

[LAB3]

Try aiming the right one further to the left, and the left one further to the right so that they cross even more in front of you rather than at your lap.

Ok.. I need to vacuum behind them and clean the fan I attached to the rear of the AVR/TV cabinet that blows across the top of my AVR. I am looking at them and they are aimed at my shoulders if you had a lazer beam in the woofer shooting a beam at you. The back wall the Cornwalls are on is about 10' and the rear wall is 18' back and sofa in the center of the room. Two Klipsch subs placed in opposite sides of the room like the diagram that Klipsch sent with them. 8' ceiling...sure does shake this small room on Bluray movies. They were in a huge 20X25 room with tall ceiling that was not square and never sounded this balanced and the you "Feel" the bass better now.This saved me from spending big bucks on two SVS subs.

 

[DenPureSound]

I guess their customer service does not have the courtesy to forward my question to someone more knowledgeable.

Perhaps you will have much better luck than I.

If DenPureSound ask Klipsch about their beloved Palladium speakers, I bet Klipsch would completely ignore him too.

I called KLIPSCH the other day, to get some specs - PLOTS, etc. of measured data on the RF-7II's, that I was considering buying up to, and I was told by KLIPSCH that their ENGR. Dept. does not release any Anechoic Plots of their tests on their speakers.

So I said, I am not going to spend $3K on something w/o PLOTS -- Period, as I want my FRONTS to be ACCURATE AND REFERENCE w/in +/-2dB and ruler-flat across the spectrum, like some REVEL Salon 2's or KEF's or Philharmonic Audio PH3's.

So that said, the Klipsch's are going into another room, and my Main FRONTS I will have details on each speaker, and details will be FR Plots on/off axis w/ certificates showing that, as I can get them from Dennis Murphy or Jim Salk!

 

[PENG]

I called KLIPSCH the other day, to get some specs - PLOTS, etc. of measured data on the RF-7II's, that I was considering buying up to, and I was told by KLIPSCH that their ENGR. Dept. does not release any Anechoic Plots of their tests on their speakers.

So I said, I am not going to spend $3K on something w/o PLOTS -- Period, as I want my FRONTS to be ACCURATE AND REFERENCE w/in +/-2dB and ruler-flat across the spectrum, like some REVEL Salon 2's or KEF's or Philharmonic Audio PH3's.

So that said, the Klipsch's are going into another room, and my Main FRONTS I will have details on each speaker, and details will be FR Plots on/off axis w/ certificates showing that, as I can get them from Dennis Murphy or Jim Salk!

It is about time everyone pay attention to specs also, not just listen to their ears/brains. Having said that I am still puzzled by my P362 that has nice FR plots on/off axis but don't sound too well with violin. As reported before I found the violins sounding a little grainier than my other Energy speakers do. I wish the distortion vs frequency plots were availbable for my P362. That may tell the other side of the story.

 

[gtpsuper24]

I emailed Aperion Audio (3 others too) and asked for off axis and various other measurements and was told that they don't release or don't have any of the graphs I was looking for. I was told to just purchase the speakers and let my ears do the judging. I prefer to let my ears to the judging but I won't buy speakers where I'm denied basic measurements.

I was told by someone that, asking for waterfall, off axis plots, frequency isn't out of the realm of credulity, and that any company that hasn't perform them or won't show them, take that with a grain of salt, if they believe enought in their product they'll do it. Guess Aperion doesn't believe or have enough faith to provide said graphs, although they did offer basic freq and impedance graph nothing else though, useful if you have just one seat in the "sweet spot" but not if theres other seat spread throughout the room.

 

[GranteedEV]

It is about time everyone pay attention to specs also, not just listen to their ears/brains. Having said that I am still puzzled by my P362 that has nice FR plots on/off axis but don't sound too well with violin. As reported before I found the violins sounding a little grainier than my other Energy speakers do.

Roughly what frequency would you say thaat grain is at?

Based on this:

There is some stored energy near 3khz and 5khz that may be responsible. Or it could be a tweeter power handling issue.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I still think DefTech speakers sound very good, although their FR are not as flat as some speakers.

We are considered by a lot of people as "audiophiles", so we demand a lot more than the average person.

But as long as the speakers sound great & don't cost too much, that is all 95% of the population cares. They don't even know what FR is.

Our standards in speakers are tremendous.

We expect our speakers to measure accurately & sound great at the same time.

Nothing less will do.

 

[PENG]

Roughly what frequency would you say thaat grain is at?

Based on this:

There is some stored energy near 3khz and 5khz that may be responsible.

3 to 5k sounds about right, may go higher but won't be by much.

Or it could be a tweeter power handling issue.

I doubt that, it's there at any SPL. I think it is some sort of harmonic distortions from the tweeter/crossover. I hear those kind of grainy violin sound from poor recordings regardless of which speakers but the P362 does it with most recordings. They sound really nice with jazz and even classical stuff as long as there are no strings and flutes. Again, for C$279.99 I have no right to complain.

 

[LAB3]

It is about time everyone pay attention to specs also, not just listen to their ears/brains. Having said that I am still puzzled by my P362 that has nice FR plots on/off axis but don't sound too well with violin. As reported before I found the violins sounding a little grainier than my other Energy speakers do. I wish the distortion vs frequency plots were availbable for my P362. That may tell the other side of the story.

Interesting ........ for 30 plus years Klipsch Heritage Cornwalls sounded more then just OK to me......... I spent some time reading about "Anechoic Plots" on
Philharmonic Audio web site. I would like to see what my old school speakers with 15" woofer and horns Plots look like. Would I sell my Cornwalls if the data chart did not look "RIGHT"?????

Unless every speaker co. has the same equipment for measuring these sound waves there will be differences you "SEE" on paper but you may not hear it.
My guess this is why some speaker co's won't publish these PLOTS. Rooms and equipment are not all the same.
This is like different engine Dyno's will show different H.P. and Torque curves for the same stock engine ....aftermarket exhaust mfg's use these #s for sales.
Trick advertising with cool looking graphs and measurement data. I see 8" woofers and a ribbon tweeter...... I see my big old school boxs with 15" woofers and horns and wonder. I guess I will never be in that 5%. j/k
I am interested and will read more about this. My guess some of this info is used for seating positions in a HT room from the Axis #'s.

The History Channel had a segment from J/M Insulating Co. and showed their Anechoic Test room and the different materials they used to do different things to a sound wave. They had a expensive test room for measuring sound waves. Does OSHA have a standard for these rooms and equipment?? I would like to see
Philharmonic Audio test room and equipment to compare it with what I watched on TV.

 

[PENG]

Interesting ........ for 30 plus years Klipsch Heritage Cornwalls sounded more then just OK to me

I have never heard those but the RF-XX ones sound not too good to me.

Unless every speaker co. has the same equipment for measuring these sound waves there will be differences you "SEE" on papetr but you may not hear it. My guess this is why some speaker co's won't publish these PLOTS. Rooms and equipment are not all the same.

Sounds logical to me but there may well be othen reasons as well.

I would like to see Philharmonic Audio test room and equipment to compare it with what I watched on TV.

I would prefer all of them to follow a rigid standard design and developed by an acredited body composed of academically and technically qualified individuals.

 

[ski2xblack]

I have never heard those but the RF-XX ones sound not too good to me.

I would have to agree with your ears on this one. That being said, Peng, if you ever get the chance, try to hear some Jubilees, PWK's most ridiculous and awesome speaker.

As a person afflicted with a mild case of the horn fever, my take on the love/hate thing is defined by love for Heritage/Cinema vs. indifference toward everything else. The common theme seems to be if PWK had a hand in the design, or not. The crotchety old fart knew how to design a speaker. Too bad he's gone.

The torch has been passed to guys like Dr. Geddes and Wayne Partham (Pi speakers) as the reigning high priests of the high sensitivity, low distortion, controlled directivity approach. It still works.

Used Klipsch Heritage is still one of the best audio bargains out there.

 

[shadyJ]

It seems to me that one of the reasons why many speaker companies don't release measurement graphs and charts is because those graphs and charts are too easily doctored to look nice, so if company X puts out some graphs, company Y will look at those graphs and figure out a way to put out some graphs that make their product look better.. I don't think that Klipsch and Aperion are seriously putting out high end products that don't measure well, but there are all kinds of ways to manipulate data to make your product look great and the competition look awful.