Why can't bookshelf type speakers be used for atmos?

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree that you want good speakers for Front and centre... but have you had a look inside effect speakers at the typical driver used.. even ones sold by good companies? And have you turned off the front and centre channels and listened to the sounds that come from effects speakers during a typical film? I have an AV processor and separate amps so its easy for me to do this. "phantom image with the bed layer"... you mean have a depth of soundstage to make a sound come from further away than the speaker itself? Is your car sound system not capable of that? I guess I'm not seeing anything special in the specs quoted for an Atmos speaker and the text often seems to highlight the quality of the grille and its ability to blend in and hide the speaker! I'm more than happy to buy KEF reference speakers or better when appropriate....at the same time I begrudge being sold snake oil. My first degree is in Physics so I guess I tend to just cross out all the mumbo jumbo and look for the facts as I read adverts and articles. And when I see something being sold for £200 that looks like and specs like a £40 auto audio speaker I just pause....Like tyres you can't easily evaluate them until they are bought and fitted and by then its too late.
You seem to be either asking a question or making a point of some kind, but I'm having trouble comprehending what it is..? Most of us here are about as anti-snake oil as it gets.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I agree that you want good speakers for Front and centre... but have you had a look inside effect speakers at the typical driver used.. even ones sold by good companies? And have you turned off the front and centre channels and listened to the sounds that come from effects speakers during a typical film? I have an AV processor and separate amps so its easy for me to do this. "phantom image with the bed layer"... you mean have a depth of soundstage to make a sound come from further away than the speaker itself? Is your car sound system not capable of that? I guess I'm not seeing anything special in the specs quoted for an Atmos speaker and the text often seems to highlight the quality of the grille and its ability to blend in and hide the speaker! I'm more than happy to buy KEF reference speakers or better when appropriate....at the same time I begrudge being sold snake oil. My first degree is in Physics so I guess I tend to just cross out all the mumbo jumbo and look for the facts as I read adverts and articles. And when I see something being sold for £200 that looks like and specs like a £40 auto audio speaker I just pause....Like tyres you can't easily evaluate them until they are bought and fitted and by then its too late.
So we should probably clarify something first. When you say “effects” speakers, I don’t know what you mean exactly. Technically, all speakers used to playback soundtracks are “effects” speakers as you can have a range of sound effects and music from all speakers. That means quality speakers should be used wherever you can afford to place them. I don’t agree that “skimping” on speakers other than the front 3 is a great way for a long term high quality system.
As far as the quality of “effects” speakers components, I still don’t follow. If by that you mean in ceiling, or in wall. Sure, many of them aren’t very good, but you can buy towers that have poor quality components too. You can also have IW and IC speakers of very high quality. Doesn’t matter if they’re in the “effects” positions, if that’s what you mean, imo they should still be of good quality.

What I mean by phantom imaging with the bed layer, is that Atmos can place dynamic objects on XYZ coordinates. So the heights/tops will phantom image with the bed layer to do so. Atmos also does have an uncanny way of making the room disappear. Do you have any experience with an Atmos system?

What I meant by the comment about car audio, was in reference to the tweeters in the component system. They’re made for very close proximity listening, and if they’re in the ceiling at 6,7,or 8’ away, there’s a lot of potential to destroy them while trying to match the dynamics of the rest of the system. Maybe it would work? Don’t know. I don’t have to worry about it.
I agree. There’s. Lot of junk out there, and snake oil too. As for buying speaker for “Atmos” specifically, I wouldn’t buy into that either. Just use high quality speakers with wide dispersion. Should be good. It seems like you’re against using good speaker for surround duty? Many guys use very nice towers all the way around!
Upfiring modules are a different thing, and I’m not a proponent of them either.

And listening to them by themselves? Yeah. I have. But I find that to be moot, as much as watching a film using only the center channel. A soundtrack is a comprised of many different sounds, and placements. To me, all points matter.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Did you guys see that thing? How did a tumbleweed get in here anyway?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
To be sure, you can use regular bookshelf speakers as ceiling mounted atmos speakers, but it is a very flawed approach for a few reasons. One is, as you know, that speaker is closer to a surface that is intended. That will increase diffraction and also boundary gain. If you tried to task a room correction EQ program like Audyssey to fix that, it will make a terrible mess. Ideally, the speakers you should use for that application should be engineered for that application.

Something else to consider is the difference between the horizontal and vertical dispersion patterns. Most bookshelf speakers were made to be listened to in a very narrow vertical angle, we are talking like +/- 15 degrees. outside of that, you get significant cancellation nulls as the difference in listening distance between the tweeter and woofer increases. Take a look at any of my bookshelf speaker reviews and compare the horizontal dispersion with the vertical dispersion. The exception to this is coaxial speakers. Also, bookshelf speakers where the tweeter is mounted very close to the woofer and has a high-order crossover can also do well here. But outside of speakers like that, you will be getting a sound with some big gulfs in the response unless you are sitting in a really tight angle of bookshelf speaker mounted on the ceiling.

If you want ceiling mounted speakers but not in-ceiling speakers, my advice is to use the JBL SCS-8. If you have a high ceiling, you could also get away with using some JBL Pro 9300 mounted on the wall, if they are high enough. If you don't need that kind of dynamic range, and want to save a few dollars, the SVS elevation speakers could also do well there.
I agree with what you have to say. I do wish you could measure and publish data on those ceiling speakers. I can not find measurements on any of them. I bet they would be ashamed of the results. They look to me to be ghastly contraptions, with tweeter and even mids hung right in front of the woofer cone.

I'm convinced the optimal speaker for Atmos ceiling has to be a full ranger or a coaxial. I really think there are only three reasonable choices. A full ranger from Mark Audio, or E.J. Jordan designs, or the SEAS prestige coaxial. I personally think this is an ideal application for a good full ranger.

For my Atmos speakers I have used four vintage Jordan Watts 4" full rangers in small sealed cabinets. I have never localized to them. I do not play movies often, but I have and planes and bullets over head are dead accurate and powerful. With the Dolby up mixer for music they help create an amazing sense of the original space and the room does disappear. I'm convinced that all speakers in these complex systems have to be very good speakers. Any bad ones will stand out.

So I don't mind showing my FR. The F3 is exactly were calculated.



That is really pretty good across the mid band considering the drivers are right up against the ceiling pop out. I decided to keep them in line with the mains, per Dolby specs.







All neat and tidy, visually and acoustically unobtrusive.

I would really like to see the commercial boys show their FRs. I have a strong feeling they would be far from pretty.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I agree with what you have to say. I do wish you could measure and publish data on those ceiling speakers. I can not find measurements on any of them. I bet they would be ashamed of the results. They look to me to be ghastly contraptions, with tweeter and even mids hung right in front of the woofer cone.

I'm convinced the optimal speaker for Atmos ceiling has to be a full ranger or a coaxial. I really think there are only three reasonable choices. A full ranger from Mark Audio, or E.J. Jordan designs, or the SEAS prestige coaxial. I personally think this is an ideal application for a good full ranger.

For my Atmos speakers I have used four vintage Jordan Watts 4" full rangers in small sealed cabinets. I have never localized to them. I do not play movies often, but I have and planes and bullets over head are dead accurate and powerful. With the Dolby up mixer for music they help create an amazing sense of the original space and the room does disappear. I'm convinced that all speakers in these complex systems have to be very good speakers. Any bad ones will stand out.

So I don't mind showing my FR. The F3 is exactly were calculated.



That is really pretty good across the mid band considering the drivers are right up against the ceiling pop out. I decided to keep them in line with the mains, per Dolby specs.







All neat and tidy, visually and acoustically unobtrusive.

I would really like to see the commercial boys show their FRs. I have a strong feeling they would be far from pretty.
I know that Harman did release some o their measurements for a few of their in-ceiling speakers. I don't remember where I saw them but they didn't look absolutely terrible, if not exactly great either. I think you could probably get half-way decent in-celing speakers from Revel or Infinity. I think Klipsch' sTHX in-ceilings might be good, as well as in-ceiling speaker from KEF. The problem is third-party verification. I can really review that type of speaker on account of my ceiling, and the only way to really measure them would be to mount them in a very wide baffle in a large room or outdoor area. I don't think it is critical that in-ceiling speakers have to be amazing anyway for what they need to do, so I wouldn't be upset if they are less than perfect.
 
Jon AA

Jon AA

Audioholic
Here are measurements for JBL's Control 328C. These (and the SC8 mountable version) have been widely used for high-end JBL Synthesis systems for years and are decent all around performers. I agree coaxials have many advantages for ceiling/height use.
 

Attachments

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Finding IW and IC FR measurements is very difficult.
Mark, these are what I chose for my front and rear Tops.

It’s more of a preview, than a review but RSL did include a polar response graph. I’ve been very satisfied with them and tried them as mains in my bedroom 5.1.
I know you’re loaded down these days but thought I’d share. FWIW, RSL designed these with the baffle structure to avoid exactly what you said about diffraction and the tweeter mount being in the way. Another reason I liked them.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
So we should probably clarify something first. When you say “effects” speakers, I don’t know what you mean exactly. Technically, all speakers used to playback soundtracks are “effects” speakers as you can have a range of sound effects and music from all speakers. That means quality speakers should be used wherever you can afford to place them. I don’t agree that “skimping” on speakers other than the front 3 is a great way for a long term high quality system.
As far as the quality of “effects” speakers components, I still don’t follow. If by that you mean in ceiling, or in wall. Sure, many of them aren’t very good, but you can buy towers that have poor quality components too. You can also have IW and IC speakers of very high quality. Doesn’t matter if they’re in the “effects” positions, if that’s what you mean, imo they should still be of good quality.

What I mean by phantom imaging with the bed layer, is that Atmos can place dynamic objects on XYZ coordinates. So the heights/tops will phantom image with the bed layer to do so. Atmos also does have an uncanny way of making the room disappear. Do you have any experience with an Atmos system?

What I meant by the comment about car audio, was in reference to the tweeters in the component system. They’re made for very close proximity listening, and if they’re in the ceiling at 6,7,or 8’ away, there’s a lot of potential to destroy them while trying to match the dynamics of the rest of the system. Maybe it would work? Don’t know. I don’t have to worry about it.
I agree. There’s. Lot of junk out there, and snake oil too. As for buying speaker for “Atmos” specifically, I wouldn’t buy into that either. Just use high quality speakers with wide dispersion. Should be good. It seems like you’re against using good speaker for surround duty? Many guys use very nice towers all the way around!
Upfiring modules are a different thing, and I’m not a proponent of them either.

And listening to them by themselves? Yeah. I have. But I find that to be moot, as much as watching a film using only the center channel. A soundtrack is a comprised of many different sounds, and placements. To me, all points matter.
I'll put a personal experience on what Bill said. My theater was piecemeal at first before I got everything installed because I had extra speakers and putting my little near field coaxial speakers on the ceiling cost me nothing. My bed channels we're all the same teeter and mid with the exception of the size of the mid on the side and back channels.

Once I put the in ceiling speakers in that had the same tweeters (albeit in a line array) it did make a noticable difference. As @William Lemmerhirt said the room just sort of went away. It sounded good before those speakers, but after was a huge difference. He'll, come to find out I don't even have them installed properly (another thread for that) and it still sounds great.

If you can, put the right speakers in place. Experimenting is fun, but not at the cost of stellar sound.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Finding IW and IC FR measurements is very difficult.
Mark, these are what I chose for my front and rear Tops.

It’s more of a preview, than a review but RSL did include a polar response graph. I’ve been very satisfied with them and tried them as mains in my bedroom 5.1.
I know you’re loaded down these days but thought I’d share. FWIW, RSL designed these with the baffle structure to avoid exactly what you said about diffraction and the tweeter mount being in the way. Another reason I liked them.
I need to take some pics of my unique speakers for the Atmos channels. Especially since I have to turn them into the correct position. It is an interesting design. Good, no clue, but interesting.

Btw, I apparently have missed some good stuff in the speaker forum. Need to hang out here more.
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Audioholic Chief
PSB CS500 or CS1000 FTW on the ceiling (It's a PSB Image bookshelf designed to be mounted on a wall or ceiling with full aiming capability). It's not as "neat" looking as in-ceiling, but the performance is +/- 1dB across most of its range as are all PSB speakers. Of course there's the room interaction, but I've mostly gotten +/-4dB variance at most across 90% or more of the audible range in which it's playing. With matching drivers on the towers (X1T), it's easy to get matching sound from every direction down to a nice 80Hz crossover point. 17.1 speakers in harmony. I don't have anything in use that can't play down to at least 55Hz and the three mains are all matching full size towers (no odd center channel effects; DSU "center spread' has NO EFFECT, for instance except to screw up the precedence effect. Music is just fine with a full center engaged. Dialog lift matches perfectly with the front heights lifting it up to screen level as if the speakers were behind the screen. I'm pretty happy with how PSB speakers have worked out. Even the older/newer speakers match timbre near perfectly as PSB sound is dead neutral across the entire line. I'm afraid their new upcoming line may go in a bad direction, though. We'll see.
 

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