Why Apple's Advice on DRM Won't Be Heeded

[highfihoney]

Even if the bands are rich, and the "big four" labels are greedy, that does not make it okay to steal music. I mean seriously, how is stealing music any different from shoplifting? The makers of clothing and candy, for example, are big corporations, their top generals make ridiculous sums of money, etc.

I have no love lost for the big four, nor do I like the excessive greed of many top artists. But stealing is stealing in my book. Stealing from a rich guy is just as wrong as stealing from a poor guy.

I hope they get rid of DRM, not because I want to steal music, but because I should be able to use something I purchase without ridiculous restrictions.

jwc

As for what you said about the big 4 or other big businesses i agree 100% but to the part refering to stealing music i respectfully say hog wash,downloading a song or recording it is not stealing it,the recording industry is just trying to stop the transfer of any music in any recordable form without recieving a payment for the music,they have allready destroyed radio years ago.

As long as the material in question is not being sold for profit or being used in an attempt to obtain a profit in any way shape or form the down loading & copying of music should stand the way it always has.FREE.

You say that you hope they get rid of DRM because you feel you should be able to use something you purchase without any restrictions,i agree but what good is having that freedom to do what you want with your purchase if nobody uses it.

 

[birdonthebeach]

but to the part refering to stealing music i respectfully say hog wash,downloading a song or recording it is not stealing it,the recording industry is just trying to stop the transfer of any music in any recordable form without recieving a payment for the music,they have allready destroyed radio years ago.

As long as the material in question is not being sold for profit or being used in an attempt to obtain a profit in any way shape or form the down loading & copying of music should stand the way it always has.FREE.

You say that you hope they get rid of DRM because you feel you should be able to use something you purchase without any restrictions,i agree but what good is having that freedom to do what you want with your purchase if nobody uses it.

So explain to me how downloading or ripping your friend's CD into your machine for you to use on your iPod or to burn yourself a CD to listen to in your car is not stealing? Someone has created a product, they are offering that product for sale, and you are consuming it without paying for it. That is stealing - there is no way to justify that. Why is it that people somehow put music in a different category than any other product? Is it because radio is "free?"

Just because you don't resell music you copy doesn't mean you haven't stolen it - you have! You are using it, consuming it, whatever you want to call it, you stole it rather than purchasing your own copy!!

Also, recorded music has NEVER been free! I'm not even sure I know what you mean when you say it "should stand the way it has always been - free!" Maybe I am misunderstanding something?

On an intellectual level, I seriously don't understand how people argue that illegal downloading or copying CD's is not stealing...

 

[highfihoney]

So explain to me how downloading or ripping your friend's CD into your machine for you to use on your iPod or to burn yourself a CD to listen to in your car is not stealing? Someone has created a product, they are offering that product for sale, and you are consuming it without paying for it. That is stealing - there is no way to justify that. Why is it that people somehow put music in a different category than any other product? Is it because radio is "free?"

Radio isnt free its paid for by advertisers & consumers are allready paying for it too with xm & serious radio,we can expect to see much more of the pay radio formats in the future.

To steal anything there needs to be an intent to steal,cheat or defraud,if the music was legaly purchased in the first place that is where the manufacturers control of said product should end.

Your not seeing the big picture,do you think it was an after thought by the recording industry & inventors & manufacturers of devices like the ipod where these new formats are being used,can you not see that the only bad intent with down loaded music was for the companies to create another format that they could charge for time & time again.

If you want to equate stealing then why not stop to think why they even created an ipod & why it was advertised as the greatest thing to ever happen to music lovers,this product is heavily pushed & has caught on like wild fire,how many new music lovers were created by the ipod that in turn will buy cd's & go to concerts,i'd be willing to bet all of this was well thought out before the ipod even hit the market,its not a far cry to imagine big business thinking about a long term idea like that.

Instead of worring about record companies loosing a few bucks ask yourself if its fair for companies to mass market an item to consumers,get them used to the idea of downloading music then cry about ot being paid for it.

Isnt that called the bait & switch?

 

[MDS]

The issue of free downloads being stealing or not depends on one's point of view towards 'fair use'.

- Ripping a CD you bought for playback in your car I consider fair use. It's no different than making a mix CD from multiple CDs in your collection. It's also no different than recording songs off the radio as we all used to do.

- Copying a CD and giving it to your friend or family member could potentially be construed as stealing but that kind of thing would be considered fair use by most people. It does lead to further sales of the CD because some people might want to 'try before they buy'. If they like it, they would probably then go out and buy their own copy (at least I do). Likewise for making MP3 out of songs on CDs you purchased.

- Ripping CDs you purchased and making MP3s and then uploading thousands of songs for anonymous strangers to download for free is DEFINITELY stealing. That is what Napster wrought and got the RIAA involved in DRM.

But DRM is too heavy handed and punishes the legitimate buyers of music like myself. As I've said before I want to *own* the music I purchase and be free to do what I want with it. Music goes away when it falls out of the mainstream. That is why I will NEVER sign up for any subscription based service. You are then limited to only what the record industry chooses to release (or re-release).

When will Vikki Love - Stop Playing on Me be released on CD or be available on iTunes? NEVER. So it is gone forever. I bought an LP of it and recorded it myself. I burned that to CD and I shared it with my sister. I'll make a copy of it for anyone that wants it because through me is about the only way anyone I know will ever be able to obtain it.

However, I will not ever upload my WAV or MP3 collection for any stranger to download for free.

 

[MDS]

Here is one more thought on how limited sharing of music can lead to future CD sales:

In the late '80s I had recorded to tape from FM radio and quite accidentally recorded a song that I liked but did not know the name of the song or the band. It got limited airplay and the band wasn't commercially successful.

For years, the line 'When I see him build his wall around you, I know the end is near' would pop into my head. Long story short is it took me almost 10 years to figure out the song was 'Back on the Streets' by the Vinnie Vincent Invasion (VV was a member of KISS for 2 albums). I found a CD on EBay and bought it. It turns out that a few years later it was re-released but then of course it went away again in short order. At least I have it now and can keep it as long as I live. If you like that music, you will likely never again hear it on subscription radio or be able to purchase it on download sites.

Someone looking for that would have no qualms about downloading it from someone else because there is no other way to obtain it. Wouldn't sharing old and out-of-print music also be considered fair use?

 

[Wafflesomd]

I'd have to say the only new artist that really sparked my attention is a funk/jazz band called Undersound.

They actually offered two ways to obtain their music. You cold either, download their CD for free at 192kbp/s mp3. Or, you could buy the cd at lossless, with a few more songs as well.

I acutally went ahead and bought they're cd, why? Becuase they have talent! They deserve to have they're music purchased, they deserve every penny.

Now, pop music today... The amazing talentless genre's, of which I could probably re-create the songs FL studio in about 5 minutes...

Music has lost its way it seems. What happened to the bands that changed generations, and paved the way for entire genres. No one cares about music nowaday's. It's all about the almaighty dollar.

At the time of this post, I was listening to Hootie and the Blowfish - Let her cry. Great song, and, I bought the cd

 

[birdonthebeach]

I am all about Fair Use. I agree with MDS for the most part - once you purchase a CD or MP3, of course you can make copies for your own use around your home, car, iPod, etc.

And I think making a sampler disc for your friends is good too - most artists & writers I know agree that this spurs sales.

Making a copy of the new CD you just bought for your friend is stealing. There is no way around that.

Music has never been free. It is just like any other product out there. Why do some people seem to deny this? It is a chosen profession just like any other. You create a product/service, and in order to make a living you sell that product or service.

Highfihoney, I don't follow your issue with XM and Sirius. If you don't want to pay for commercial free radio, playing songs and formats that cannot be found anywhere else on radio, then don't subscribe. I am happy to pay $12/month for that service. Commercial radio no longer interests me, with all the ads and the boring playlists. But I have a choice! I can turn it off. Or I can pay for XM.

The idea that the iPod was some well thought out conspiracy by the big labels is a joke. They were idiots, and did not want to deal with the reality of technology, and thus ended up having to deal with Napster and the like. They have been playing catch-up ever since. Apple finally convinced them that there was a way to do it right. Now the time has come for them to give up on the DRM so that those of us who DON'T steal music can have the freedom we deserve with digital formats of the music.

I just don't follow your logic, highfihoney.

 

[highfihoney]

Highfihoney, I don't follow your issue with XM and Sirius. If you don't want to pay for commercial free radio, playing songs and formats that cannot be found anywhere else on radio, then don't subscribe. I am happy to pay $12/month for that service. Commercial radio no longer interests me, with all the ads and the boring playlists. But I have a choice! I can turn it off. Or I can pay for XM.

The idea that the iPod was some well thought out conspiracy by the big labels is a joke. They were idiots, and did not want to deal with the reality of technology, and thus ended up having to deal with Napster and the like. They have been playing catch-up ever since. Apple finally convinced them that there was a way to do it right. Now the time has come for them to give up on the DRM so that those of us who DON'T steal music can have the freedom we deserve with digital formats of the music.

I just don't follow your logic, highfihoney.

First off i dont download anything,im a music collector & take pride in my collection,at last count over 1,500 titles,i wouldnt put any home made recording in my collection no matter the medium,i copy my own discs for use in our car systems & thats it,what im defending here is kids being able to copy & share music for free.

To answer your question about me thinking the ipod was a conspiricy the answer is no but i do think that everybody knew all along where it would lead,do you really believe that the recording industry giants are just a bunch of stupid boobs aimlessly running around making boat loads of cash without enough foresight to predict a new trend while its happening & to have enough business sense to exploit it to its fullest?

Commercial radio has changed the way they advertise with every song having a commercial lead in or a commercial trailer making it impossible to record an entire song,is this pure accident or could it be that its part of the business model laid out by the recording industry to make recording impossible,commercial radio sucks for many reasons just pick the reason you like but in the end all the reasons lead music lovers closer & closer to a pay for radio service like xm,the $12 a month charge for xm isnt alot but thats not my point,to a kid who makes minimum wage its 1/10'th of his earnings & thats if the kid even qualifies for the service.

You threw the word conspiricy out there which was silly in the first place,this whole ipod/down load thing isnt a conspiricy its a long range business model designed to maximize profits from every aspect of each recording so they can profit from every person hearing the material.

Pretty simple logic.

 

[stratman]

Let me throw a wrench in the machine here, let's say I go and buy a Bosch drill at Home Depot, I'm a professional tradesman (I make my living with tools)I lend that same tool to a buddy who is also a tradesman, he builds a house with it and turns a huge profit, he skipped buying that drill from Bosch, instead he used one from a friend, should Bosch be remunerated, afterall they lost a sale due to my lending out the tool and the second party made a profit using said tool.

Or how about books or magazines, I read a great book and give it to my friend to read? How about your friendly dentist he has tons of magazines for you to read while waiting.

 

[rr2465]

Mixed Tapes?

I'm a child of the 80's. Back then we made "mixed tapes" all the time. We recorded songs from the radio, songs from LPs, songs from cassettes and then songs from CD's (CD's a little bit later). We made mixed tapes and gave them to our friends. We met girls and gave them mixes of what we were listening to. I don't remember this being considered stealing. Maybe it was?

How different is this from making a "playlist" and sharing with your friend on an iPod?

 

[MDS]

How different is this from making a "playlist" and sharing with your friend on an iPod?

As I stated above, perhaps too verbosely, I don't think that is any different than making mix tapes or CDs. If however, you make your 1,000 song playlist available for any anonymous stranger on the internet to download for free, that is definitely stealing and that is the main concern of the RIAA.

 

[birdonthebeach]

First off i dont download anything,im a music collector & take pride in my collection,at last count over 1,500 titles,i wouldnt put any home made recording in my collection no matter the medium,i copy my own discs for use in our car systems & thats it,what im defending here is kids being able to copy & share music for free.

To answer your question about me thinking the ipod was a conspiricy the answer is no but i do think that everybody knew all along where it would lead,do you really believe that the recording industry giants are just a bunch of stupid boobs aimlessly running around making boat loads of cash without enough foresight to predict a new trend while its happening & to have enough business sense to exploit it to its fullest?

I am glad to hear you don't personally steal music (and I am not trying to sound like a jerk, by the way, so don't take this as an attack on YOU), but there is a generation of kids right now that think that music is free. And is it not - it never has been. I too, have been an avid collector of music since I was a kid. I used to save money I made mowing lawns to go to local mom and pop record store and buy singles and 33's! I also made mix tapes, from the radio and from my albums, and traded them around. But even as kids we understood that the only way the artists, huge or unknown, made a living was from us PURCHASING their albums. Kids copying and "sharing" music today IS a big deal. (I do not have a problem with mix discs, etc - that spurs people to buy music)

And by the way, I LOVE the way you describe the record execs above, because guess what, YOU ARE RIGHT! They are a bunch of boobs (mostly suits, actually), making loads of cash, who ride around in limos and had NO interest in listening to people predicting the digital future!! I worked with these guys during that time! The late 80's and early 90's was when development died at the labels because the huge multinationals bought up the record industry. These companies are run by suits - bean counters with no interest in music, only in money. They are greedy and yes, they were ignorant. I don't hate what napster did to the mega labels, I hate what it did to the artists & songwriters. The majority of recording artists struggle to ever make a decent living. Trust me on this. For every big act you see, there are THOUSANDS of struggling artists out there. My guess is that your massive collection is full of artists who are directly impacted every time someone burns a disc for a buddy of one of their albums rather than buys a CD or purchases a download.

I love this discussion - I am only trying to help people see past the big names and big companies. I'm not trying to pick a fight, highfihoney.

(By the way, Stratman, I love your wrench, but the analogy of the power tool - it misses the mark because the owner of the tool can't use it at the same time the guy that borrows it does. The books and magazines analogy is better...)

Engage an artist that has never had a record go gold (500k units sold). Trust me, they are not making much money. (And by the way - that is rare air, to sell gold or platinum.) Many critically acclaimed artists have never seen riches, especially if they are signed to a major label.

Believe it or not, I do see a silver lining in all this. This cycle has happened at a time when the music industry "machine" had begun to stink. Lousy stuff coming from the majors. The death of artist development at the labels resulted in the death of great new artists, for the most part. Which has meant that the independent scene has flourished. (not to mention reunion tours, right Gene? ) And technology has allowed this scene to thrive. A struggling artist can in theory, buy a computer and some gear, record their own record, market and sell it online via their own website, myspace, etc., and in a strange way go old school - cutting out the big labels. There is some great stuff out there!

I know you guys are sick of hearing this from me.... I think I am too. We can probably go round and round and never get anywhere. My only goal is to have people understand it from the point of view of a "working" person in music industry, not a big label or mega star.