Which one (used)? NAD T770 or Outlaw 1070

[wideyedwanderer]

Hi:

I've been looking at used av receiver classifieds hoping to get a great av receiver for myself. My use if going to be 70 / 30 -- music / movies. So I'm looking for receivers that are strong with music. My budget is a max of $500 (alright I know its skimpy by audiophile standards) so I'm looking for good quality used receivers.

I know both don't have HDMI -- and I read a lot of ppl get around this by hooking the TV directly to the DVD player. If this works fine, is there any reason I should miss HDMI slots (given I'm not going to have a v complicated setup).

Thanks!

 

[Seth=L]

I'd try to find a receiver that has preouts, so you can connect seperate amplification.

I personally recommend this...

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5002/Marantz/SR5002-receiver-90w-x-7ch-HDMI-home-theater-surround/1.html

The Marantz receivers do really well on benchtested power, and I think it would be advantageous to have everything you need and more for less than some supposed "music specific" receiver. NAD claims they put music first, however I firmly believe that's no more than clever marketing. I wouldn't spend that much money on a used receiver when I could get a quality refurb for less that has a full warranty (yes, Marantz offers a full warranty on refurbished receivers).

 

[wideyedwanderer]

Thanks Seth=L

Two follow-up questions about the Marantz 5002 you suggested:

Is this Marantz a high-current receiver? Will it handle 4 ohm speakers? Marantz unlike some others doesn't spell this out in their specs. Onkyo mentions "high-current" and NAD has their own "IHF dynamic power" terminology.

Is buying a Refurb safe in audio equipment? I need to confirm coz I'm sorta new to audiophile-land (although I've bought a big refurb LCD in the past - so I don't have any refurb-phobia).

 

[Seth=L]

Refurbs are just as good as new ones, they've been checked in and out. Since Marantz offers the full warranty on their refurbs it seems like a pretty safe bet.

Yes, the Marantz is ready to handle 4 ohm speakers.

IHF is an old amplifier rating method, it's much more laxed that what is used to rate amplifiers now (and FTC isn't that great either). Basically that's NAD's clever marketing at work again. NAD receivers aren't bad though, I just think the Marantz is superior in far to many ways to ignore, and it costs less out the door.

Onkyo's "high current" is marketing again. Receivers aren't made to be low current, so why would we assume their would be a high current one. They are all as high current as the designer allows. Transformer size, capacitor banks, and output devices are the main determinates of final current output. Often times the bigger they are, the better they are. It's not always set in stone, but if you hang around it long enough you start to see what's going where and who's doing what.

 

[PENG]

Is this Marantz a high-current receiver? Will it handle 4 ohm speakers? Marantz unlike some others doesn't spell this out in their specs. Onkyo mentions "high-current" and NAD has their own "IHF dynamic power" terminology.

If you are thinking of the Totem Rainmakers, get a power amp to work with a Marantz AVR that has preouts. Don't believe too much in those claims about high current and IHF dynamic power by receivers. Receivers in general are not designed to drive 4 ohm and low sensitivity speakers.

 

[Seth=L]

If you are thinking of the Totem Rainmakers, get a power amp to work with a Marantz AVR that has preouts. Don't believe too much in those claims about high current and IHF dynamic power by receivers. Receivers in general are not designed to drive 4 ohm and low sensitivity speakers.

Most receivers aren't comfortable with 4 ohm loads or lower, I would agree. There are some exceptions, such as Onkyo's TX-SR805. Will the Marantz work until the OP can afford to purchase an amplifier? I'd like to think so. The last two 2 channel amplifiers I've purchased were under $200, it's just a matter of finding a good deal on an amplifier, or maybe considering an amplifier like the Behringer EP2500, which is a great cost/performance amplifier.

My Yamaha got a bit rough with the AR Classic 18s, so I connected them to a 60wpc Rotel with improved results (other than the lack of relays in the amplifier, or 12v triggers).

 

[PENG]

Most receivers aren't comfortable with 4 ohm loads or lower, I would agree. There are some exceptions, such as Onkyo's TX-SR805. Will the Marantz work until the OP can afford to purchase an amplifier? I'd like to think so. The last two 2 channel amplifiers I've purchased were under $200, it's just a matter of finding a good deal on an amplifier, or maybe considering an amplifier like the Behringer EP2500, which is a great cost/performance amplifier.

I agree with you but the Rainmakers sensitivity is 87.5 dB/W/m, with impedance likely closer to 4 ohms. The 90W rated 5003 can do the job, but he may not be able to get the best out of those speakers. It does has preouts so he can add an amp later for sure.

 

[griffinconst]

Seth mentioned the Onkyo 805 for 4 ohm speakers. I have one and run 4 ohm speakers with no problemo. You should be able to find a lightly used or refurb. 805 around your budget. Besides being a good unit with a strong amp section, it has the HDMI connections you want.
I would warn that what you might read about them running hot is true but easily fixed by laying a computer fan on top so it sucks the heat out. Mine is cooler than cool now.

 

[griffinconst]

Peng mentioned something about Rainmakers. If you're looking for used Totem speakers there's a pair of Arro's on ebay right now.
Disclaimer: I do not know the seller. I do like Totem speakers.

 

[Seth=L]

I agree with you but the Rainmakers sensitivity is 87.5 dB/W/m, with impedance likely closer to 4 ohms. The 90W rated 5003 can do the job, but he may not be able to get the best out of those speakers. It does has preouts so he can add an amp later for sure.

My ARs are 88db 1watt/meter 4 ohms nominal (Totem states 4 ohms as minimum). My ARs sound great with my Yamaha RX-V3800 until I really start pressing the limits. As a limit pusher I felt it was necessary to give the Rotel amplifier a go, and it has given a bit of relief. What's cool is that the Rotel and the Yamaha's internal amplifiers have the same final output, meaning I could effectively bi-amp my speakers and possibly gain another 3dB of headroom.

 

[PENG]

My ARs are 88db 1watt/meter 4 ohms nominal (Totem states 4 ohms as minimum). My ARs sound great with my Yamaha RX-V3800 until I really start pressing the limits. As a limit pusher I felt it was necessary to give the Rotel amplifier a go, and it has given a bit of relief. What's cool is that the Rotel and the Yamaha's internal amplifiers have the same final output, meaning I could effectively bi-amp my speakers and possibly gain another 3dB of headroom.

Are you saying that the 60W Rotel can a better job driving your ARs? I would think that the RX-V3800 has more power in 2 channel mode than the 60W Rotel. It also definitely has more power than the Marantz 5003, again, in Stereo, not 7.1.

 

[Seth=L]

Are you saying that the 60W Rotel can a better job driving your ARs? I would think that the RX-V3800 has more power in 2 channel mode than the 60W Rotel. It also definitely has more power than the Marantz 5003, again, in Stereo, not 7.1.

Consider the fact that the Rotel probably has more output at 4 ohms than it does at 8 ohms. Maybe the Yamaha isn't meant to handle 4 ohm loads for any longer than a few moments. I definitely heard clipping when using the Yamaha, not so much with the Rotel with the same material at the same levels of output. Keep in mind also the ARs are 4 ohms nominal, they probably dip lower than that. The Rotel is a dual mono design and is rated to handle 4 ohm loads.

The Benchtests for the SR5003 would seem to indicate it's performance is pretty close to on par with the RX-V3900 (the model that replaced the RX-V3800).

 

[PENG]

The Benchtests for the SR5003 would seem to indicate it's performance is pretty close to on par with the RX-V3900 (the model that replaced the RX-V3800).

I said it myself, that AVRs are not designed to deal with 4 ohm loads. However, I do expect the 3800 better the Rotel and the 5003 in two channel output, 8 or 4 ohms. All along I was referring to 2 channel pure direct mode only. I knew the 3XXX Yamaha models did not fare well in S&V and HT mag lab measurements under ACD conditions. I thought their 1, 2 channel test results were good.

Take a look of the size of the 60W Rotel amp transformer. Yes it is designed to be a power amp but you can't draw blood from stone, power amp or not it is still a little 60W amp. I guess may be even Seth=L are subject to Placebo. That being said, I also assume your Rotel is of the class A/B design, if it isn't, then everything I said may not apply.

Finally, I am sorry about making so much assumptions, but I am again, too lazy to do any search on a Saturday afternoon.

 

[Seth=L]

The output stage on the Rotel is more stout, as are the caps, could this sway it in favor of the Rotel?

 

[PENG]

The output stage on the Rotel is more stout, as are the caps, could this sway it in favor of the Rotel?

Sorry Seth, but I doubt it. I am still assuming... but let's assume the 3800 has 2X15,000 (more likely 20,000) uF for the 7 channels. Since it uses one common P/S for all channels, if you use it to listen to 2 ch stereo music the whole 30,000 uF will be available for only 2 channels. Open up the Rotel and I would bet you won't find much more than 20,000 uF total in it. Each of the RX-V3800's 7 amp has to output up to 140W into 8 ohms or at least 70W into 4 ohms continuously so I would say it's output stage has got to be as stout or stouter than that in the 60W Rotel.

If you have the RB-960BX, you are right it is definitely a stout amp and will certainly come close to being as powerful as the RX-V3800. I have no doubt that power amps beats AV receivers each and every time in terms of real power output, but a 140WX7 38 lbs near flag ship AVR should be able to beat an entry level 60W 20 lbs stereo power amp most of the time.

For you, I decided to get out of my lazy mode and do some research, I found the following:

HCC Tech Labs tests on the RX-V3800:
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/7109
Manufacturer’s Output: 140W x 7
channel into 8
152W (2 channels driven, 8 ,
0.5% THD)
259W (2 channels driven, 4 ,
0.5% THD)
97W (5 channels driven, 8 ,
0.5% THD)
175W (5 channels driven, 4 ,
0.5% THD)
Fidelity firewall: 145W
(0.032% THD, 8 , 1kHz,
excellent)
THD @ 50W: 0.0006% THD
(1kHz, 8 , excellent)
Frequency response: 20Hz-
20kHz +/- 0.15dB (good)

The basically same (amp section) RX-V3900:

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/yamaha_rx-v3900_av_receiver/index3.html

....the RX-V3900’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 190.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 220.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 239.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 282.9 watts.

Compared above figures to Rotel RB-960BX:

DIN output.............110 WPC, 4 ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD

Anyway, time to draw your own conclusion, but before you do, I hope you would get someone to help you do some blind tests first. After that, I would have to agree at the end of the day it is what you hear that counts.

Just an aside, I owned AR speakers before so I do know most of them are 4 ohm nominal with sensitivity at around 85 to 86 dB/W/m. The AR18 though, from what I managed to google, are rated 8 ohms. How sure are you that it is 4 ohm nominal. Remember most ohmmeters measures d.c. resistance only, not impedance. Just because you heard distortion due to clipping it doesn't not mean it is the amp, it could be your speakers too. Let's face it, AR18 speakers are among the newer vintage AR speakers but still could have been around for 30 years, the liquid used to cool the voice coil could be drying up so I wouldn't push them too hard.

 

[Seth=L]

Sorry Seth, but I doubt it. I am still assuming... but let's assume the 3800 has 2X15,000 (more likely 20,000) uF for the 7 channels. Since it uses one common P/S for all channels, if you use it to listen to 2 ch stereo music the whole 30,000 uF will be available for only 2 channels. Open up the Rotel and I would bet you won't find much more than 20,000 uF total in it. Each of the RX-V3800's 7 amp has to output up to 140W into 8 ohms or at least 70W into 4 ohms continuously so I would say it's output stage has got to be as stout or stouter than that in the 60W Rotel.

If you have the RB-960BX, you are right it is definitely a stout amp and will certainly come close to being as powerful as the RX-V3800. I have no doubt that power amps beats AV receivers each and every time in terms of real power output, but a 140WX7 38 lbs near flag ship AVR should be able to beat an entry level 60W 20 lbs stereo power amp most of the time.

For you, I decided to get out of my lazy mode and do some research, I found the following:

HCC Tech Labs tests on the RX-V3800:
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/7109
Manufacturer’s Output: 140W x 7
channel into 8
152W (2 channels driven, 8 ,
0.5% THD)
259W (2 channels driven, 4 ,
0.5% THD)
97W (5 channels driven, 8 ,
0.5% THD)
175W (5 channels driven, 4 ,
0.5% THD)
Fidelity firewall: 145W
(0.032% THD, 8 , 1kHz,
excellent)
THD @ 50W: 0.0006% THD
(1kHz, 8 , excellent)
Frequency response: 20Hz-
20kHz +/- 0.15dB (good)

The basically same (amp section) RX-V3900:

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/yamaha_rx-v3900_av_receiver/index3.html

....the RX-V3900’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 190.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 220.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 239.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 282.9 watts.

Compared above figures to Rotel RB-960BX:

DIN output.............110 WPC, 4 ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD

Anyway, time to draw your own conclusion, but before you do, I hope you would get someone to help you do some blind tests first. After that, I would have to agree at the end of the day it is what you hear that counts.

Just an aside, I owned AR speakers before so I do know most of them are 4 ohm nominal with sensitivity at around 85 to 86 dB/W/m. The AR18 though, from what I managed to google, are rated 8 ohms. How sure are you that it is 4 ohm nominal. Remember most ohmmeters measures d.c. resistance only, not impedance. Just because you heard distortion due to clipping it doesn't not mean it is the amp, it could be your speakers too. Let's face it, AR18 speakers are among the newer vintage AR speakers but still could have been around for 30 years, the liquid used to cool the voice coil could be drying up so I wouldn't push them too hard.

They are not the AR 18s, they are the Acoustic Research Classic 18s. There is a huge difference.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59029

It would seem that the math seems to favor the Yamaha. I remember the Yamaha being extremely hot, the Rotel barely got warm. I will have to go through some listening tests again at a later time, work and getting my car repaired will be consuming most of this week.

 

[PENG]

They are not the AR 18s, they are the Acoustic Research Classic 18s. There is a huge difference.

http://audio-database.com/AR/amp_speaker/
http://audio-database.com/AR/amp_speaker/ar-18-e.html
http://www.aphenos.net/misc/electronics/speakers/klh/all_ar.htm

From what I can see the above links pretty much round up all vintage AR speakers I have ever heard of but it is quite possible I missed a few.
Anyway you go fix your car and I won't bug you for a while.

 

[Seth=L]

http://audio-database.com/AR/amp_speaker/
http://audio-database.com/AR/amp_speaker/ar-18-e.html
http://www.aphenos.net/misc/electronics/speakers/klh/all_ar.htm

From what I can see the above links pretty much round up all vintage AR speakers I have ever heard of but it is quite possible I missed a few.
Anyway you go fix your car and I won't bug you for a while.

I'm not fixing my car right now, it's dark outside. LOL

It's on the 3rd link you posted. Look at the Classic 18, or better the thread I linked in my last post. It's got all the info about those speakers one could possibly hope to get.

 

[PENG]

I'm not fixing my car right now, it's dark outside. LOL

It's on the 3rd link you posted. Look at the Classic 18, or better the thread I linked in my last post. It's got all the info about those speakers one could possibly hope to get.

Got it, for some reasons I didn't notice the link. I can see that speaker needs some serious power.

 

[Seth=L]

Got it, for some reasons I didn't notice the link. I can see that speaker needs some serious power.

They are the best speakers I've owned, they even trumped the Paradigm Studio 100s in my room. I think I'm going to avoid bass reflex designs for now, as most of them are not adequate. I seriously believe that at the suggested retail these ARs had in 93' they where quite undervalued.