Which of these 3 AVRs would you get?

[AbyssalLoris]

There are 3 contenders. All other things being equal, which one would you get based on 1) performance and 2) features (in that order of importance), and why? Stereo performance for music is important.

Onkyo TX-SR605
Denon AVR 887
Harman Kardon AVR 247

Thanks for your inputs.

 

[MDS]

First and foremost, brand choice of a receiver is a personal thing and usually comes about through experience with particular manufacturers.

All receivers from top-tier manufacturers will be very similar with only minor differences in features at a given price point. Having said that, I vote for the Onkyo because...you guessed it...I have the most experience with Onkyo and they have always been perfect right out of the box.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

I wasn't talking about brand name at all. You can call them A, B, and C for all that it matters to me.

I am of the opinion that when it comes to electronics, the hardware components that go into it is the only parameter. Of course there are things like build quality and cosmetics, but what I'm saying is that a 24-bit/96-kHz ADC is going to behave the way it does. It is completely quantified by its performance parameters. Beyond that there is little or no subjectivity. Similarly for a class AB amp with a certain linearity and efficiency (among other things). If I'm comparing two amps with similar electrical specs, then their contribution to the sound is the same. One is not going to sound 'warmer' or more 'dynamic' than the other. In that sense, numbers do not lie.

The point of this rant being that based on specifications, and real world tests (the latter because specs are sometimes ambiguously presented, by intent or otherwise) of performance, I would appreciate hearing your opinions.

Another reason why I would value your thoughts is that after going through an unholy number of spec sheets, I am thoroughly confused about the various features (inputs/switching/pass-through/what not). Someone familiar with these things will be able to give me a heads up about stand-out advantages of one product over the other.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

It is late in the night, so before I log off, let me make a change to my list.

The Harman Kardon is out, for various reasons. I believe the other choices offer more for my money. Had there been some reason for me to believe the HK had a better amp in it, I would still consider it, but there is not.

Instead there is a new contender that I had missed earlier. So now the list is:

Onkyo TX-SR605
Denon AVR 887
Yamaha RX-V659

I notice that the major shortcoming of the Yammy compared to the other two is lack of HDMI capability of any sort. This whole issue is fuzzy to me, but I suspect it to be more a matter of cosmetics/convenience than anything else. It appears that the Yammy has a good amp, which is an important factor.

Help me pick one.

 

[MDS]

I notice that the major shortcoming of the Yammy compared to the other two is lack of HDMI capability of any sort. This whole issue is fuzzy to me, but I suspect it to be more a matter of cosmetics/convenience than anything else. It appears that the Yammy has a good amp, which is an important factor.

Let me say it again. There are minor differencesi in 'features' between different brands at the same price point. The Yamaha offers pre-outs but no HDMI; the Onkyo offers HDMI but no pre-outs. Which feature is more important to you?

If you think that you can tell the difference from 'specs' you are sorely mistaken. It's not like one brand offers superior specs to another - they are all good. It comes down to features you need at a price point you can live with.

No doubt others will chime in with their preference but as I said, it all comes down to experience with a particular brand. In terms of 'sound quality' they will all be equivalent.

If you want to be baffled by a number of features that are the same as every other manufacturer but incomprehensible to use, choose the Denon. If you want a million DSP modes that you will never use, choose the Yamaha. If you want straightforward features that are well explained in the manual and ease-of-use, choose the Onkyo.

If you're looking for which one 'sounds the best', the answer is all of them. It's not like this question isn't asked a hundred times a day on this forum or any other. Download the manuals for each, try each in your home and decide for yourself which one meets your needs. They are all pretty much the same, the difference lies in certain features at a given price point and ease of use.

 

[Davemcc]

How about a Yamaha HTR-6060 for $333 that I came across yesterday. That's 1/3 what I paid for my Denon and I think it's probably an equal or better unit. I've never dealt with this company,so do your due diligence, but the price seems pretty darn good.
http://etailelectronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=10742&Category_Code=HAReceivers

 

[rnatalli]

I used to be a fan of H/K stuff in the past, but I don't really like their newer stuff. From your list, I'd probably go with either the Yamaha or Denon based on personal experience with those brands.

 

[pearsall001]

You don't mention what speakers you're running. Are they easy to drive or do they require some juice to get the most out of them. All three AVR's you have listed are pretty inexpensive (they have to cheat somewhere) & seem to have the same power ratings. However at their given price point I wouldn't put much faith in their power specs. I would be suprised if they even produce 1/2 that in real world performance. If good, clean power are high on your list, look elsewhere. If that's not important to you then just put all three names in a hat & pick one.

 

[PENG]

There are 3 contenders. All other things being equal, which one would you get based on 1) performance and 2) features (in that order of importance), and why? Stereo performance for music is important.

Onkyo TX-SR605
Denon AVR 887
Harman Kardon AVR 247

Thanks for your inputs.

The Onkyo does not seem to have pre-outs. If true, that puts it at disadvantage, but only if you plan on adding an external amp, perhaps at least a 2 channel amp to improve stereo performance.

Between the 659 and the 887. I think they are pretty much even in terms of performance and features. They weigh 27.1 and 29.3 lbs (info from their websites) respectively so the Denon won by weight. The 605 weighs 25.1 lbs, that's 17% lighter than the Denon, combined with the lack of pre-outs (need to double check) it is not my top pick for sure. I am not saying that weight is always an important factor, but when considering entry level units weighing less than 30 lbs, it could potentially be an indicator of amplifer/power supply performance.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

Hmm.. let's see..

I do care about good clean power. Ability to source sufficient current at low distortion over a good bandwidth while driving (potentially) low impedance loads. I know this means I have to go choose a higher price point. But compromises are possible.

I have yet to get speakers. Haven't quite decided which ones yet. They are not going to be huger towers that demand loads of power. But I have also been looking at some 6 ohm and 4 ohm speakers.

So, based on Gene's review here on Audioholics, I included the Yammy in the line up. I don't believe it's true that all AVRs at the same price point have equally crappy amp sections. Gene believed that the Yammy had an uncommonly good amp for the price. That is the kind of information I'm looking for. Is there reason to believe it delivers better power than the others? What about the Denon?

Also, I'm quite unfamiliar with the Yamaha line up. Can someone help there? What is the difference between the RX/RZ/whatever series and the HT series? They split their products into these 2 categories with no explanation whatsoever. Looking at the specs doesn't reveal anything either (at least not to me). Both lineups seem to have a slew of options.

So can anyone suggest a good Yammy (up from the RX-V659) that will power 4 ohms well? I mean the least possible (cost-wise) such option. Similarly with the Denons. Don't worry about that option being too expensive for me. It will give me an idea of where I stand.

Finally, am I understanding correctly that if I were to give up HDMI repeating or passthrough or whatever (say no HDMI in the AVR), all that means is I have to run a HDMI cable from DVD player/set top box to the TV?

 

[PENG]

If specs are not enough for you, may be lab results will help. I can’t find any lab results for the 659 & 887, but the 661 and the 2307 should be very similar. Please take a look of the lab results yourself by following the links below. To me the Denon 2307 (same amp section as the 887 I think but not 100% sure) will perform the best in stereo mode into 4 ohms, followed closely by the Yamaha RX-V661.

Lab results
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2171/test-bench-denon-avr-2307ci-av-receiver.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2048/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr804-av-receiver.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2276/test-bench-yamaha-rx-v661-av-receiver.html


4 ohm question

Both Yamaha and Denon answered this question in their FAQ. Yamaha seem to want you to use the impedance selector switch that will for sure limit its power output. Denon does not provide such impedance selector switches; they appeared to simply rely on the protection circuitry.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/faq/faqdetail.html?CNTID=205002&CTID=5009135#t_205002

http://usa.denon.com/1854.asp#Q10

Difference between the RX-V and HTR products

They do tell you what the differences are, basically nothing other than cosmetics.
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/faq/faqdetail.html?CNTID=205010&CTID=5009145#t_205010

Lastly, I think you understand the HDMI issue correctly. It is mostly a convenient feature that allows you to use one cable to pass both video and multi-channel audio signals. The models that you mentioned can also up convert your composite and S-video signals.

 

[pearsall001]

If you haven't bought your speakers yet...stay away from 4ohm with those receivers. Those receivers will be taxed to the max & you won't be happy with the results. My suggestion, buy the speakers first then match them up with the proper receiver that can handle the load.

 

[Seth=L]

My vote goes to the RX-V661/HTR-6060 (HTR is big box store versions of RX-V series, they are essentially the same receiver).

The Yamaha offers HDMI repeating (processes audio off of HDMI) and has preouts. It also has a decent if not great amount of power for the price and features it has.

The Onkyo is the most up to date, but lacks the beef and preout features. HDMI 1.3 is the most up to date version of the connection and that model does feature upconverting to 1080p with a decent, but rather dated, upconverter.

I don't like the look of the Denon mentioned, so it is out for me.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

Thanks for all the opinions.

Now I do take looks into the equation believe me, but somehow not in an AVR. Except if someone made a super slim (but very long) AVR that would fit in my cabinet! I went out and bought this cabinet I really liked - it doesn't have a single shelf with room (height wise) for an AVR. What was I thinking ?

But all that apart, I'm liking the Yam-V661 and the Denon-887 so far. The version of HDMI dictates allowable bandwidth (bit-rate) right? v1.1 should be good enough wouldn't you say?

 

[jcPanny]

Yamaha w/ 4 ohm speakers

I would also recommend the Yamaha RX-V661 based on good result with my similar HTR-5860 model. For about a year, I used the Yamaha to drive my 4 ohm Onix Ref 1 speakers at moderate volumes in a medium size room. I had plenty of ventalation and didn't have problems with the Yamaha overheating, shutting down, etc.

More recently I upgraded to a Emotiva LPA-1 Amp and I am using the Yamaha as a pre-pro. The outboard amp is more capable of driving the 4 ohm speakers, especially since I am adding a 4 ohm center and surrounds.

If you have a pair of 4 ohm speakers and a moderate sized room, the Yamaha RX-V661 should be fine and the pre-outs will allow you to upgrade to an outboard amp. If you have a 5.1 or 7.1 system of 4 ohm speakers than the Yamaha and other mid-fi receivers probably wont be adequate.

 

[pzaur]

I second the Yamaha V661. I set one up for my parents. The Universal Remote that comes with the unit is very tweakable. The "Scene Buttons" on the bottom are great as they are assignable and have capability to turn on/off everything you want to use.

The menu on the V661 takes a minute to get around. Once you're used to it, it's not hard to navigate. This unit does not up-convert to HDMI. It only has pass through. It will up-convert to Component from composite/S-video. This unit is HDMI 1.2a compatible.

I'll be picking this model up or the current model when it comes time.

-pat

 

[AbyssalLoris]

Well, as an update (just in case some one here was interested for some inexplicable reason ), I'm likely to pick either of the Yammy's - v659 or v661. Anyone care to enumerate the differences? The 661 has pre-outs right? Does the 659?

I decided that I would pick a cheap receiver that still performs decently, especially because I intend to add an amp in a few months. Until then I'll just make sure I don't crank it up too much. Actually I'm unlikely to do that even later. Besides, I will only have 2.1 for a few months. So really, the AVR will only be driving stereo. Any of these should do ok.

As an aside, is there any JVC that anyone can recommend? I'm only asking because my cabinet is configured stupidly and won't take any AVR on the market except probably a JVC, as they make some slim ones. This is not really important, as I would probably have to add a shelf of some kind for an amp anyway and I'd be able to put my AVR on it too.

 

[wyllisx1]

The 659 is rated at 100 watts per channel & does have pre-outs. The 661 is rated at 90 watts per channel & has HDMI v1.2.

 

[AbyssalLoris]

Ok, I dug this up again and here is what I found:

1. 659 is rated 100wpc while 661 is 90wpc (all other things being the same)
2. 659 supports HDMI 1.1; 661 does HDMI 1.2a -> I'm not sure this is of any major consequence to me except possibly something to do with data from SACD not having to be decoded in the player but rather directly in the AVR.
3. 659 does not do HDMI repeating (or switching or whatever); 661 does
4. Something to do with Simplay -> 661 has it; 659 does not (if this statement makes any sense at all).

So can someone tell me what Simplay is? I'm sure I don't really care, but just out of curiosity. Going to Simplay's site brings up a lot of marketing hogwash that I'd rather not go through if someone who already knows can shed some light.

Other than that, just killing time here.. .

 

[jcPanny]

Yamaha Receivers

The Yamaha RX-V659 does not have any HDMI inputs, switching, audio processing, etc. Therefore it does not support HDMI 1.1.

If you want HDMI, get the RX-V661 for about $100 more.