Where to buy drivers

[density]

Hello,

I'm thinking of either building some speakers or saving for years and years to buy some very nice speakers. I have a good friend who has built a fair number of speakers, and some sound nice. I want to know how to make them sound best. Part is drivers. I know he has bought from Parts Express.

Do you know of other good sources for drivers?


Do you know of any great site to read more about building speakers?

Thank you,
a noob,
density

 

[jonnythan]

The Parts Express forums are very good.

 

[j_garcia]

Drivers, while very important, are only about 50% of the speaker design IMO. The crossover is the hardest thing to design if you want the BEST sound. If you don't plan to be testing the design's response and tweaking it to get the sound you are after, then "best" is going to be difficult, so we need to qualify what "best" means somehow. Have you considered just picking up some kits from someplace like Parts Express and building those?

 

[density]

I have considered picking up a kit from Parts Express. I worry about such things, though. I know that some kits can sound great. Can they compete with the more top end speakers on the market. I know that the big companies are paying for marketing, engineering, labor, and everything else. But they have to be paying for all the research as well. I struggle to believe that I can pick up a kit from parts express and with a bit of tweaking get it to sound as good or better than one of the many thousands of dollar speakers that get excellent reviews.

There is also the problem of, if I want to buy fancy speakers I am able to go to places and do some blind tests. Compare them one way or another. If I build them... I can't really do that. I don't really know how to resolve that issue.

I know what my friend has built, but I would like some opinions from other people. Also, at this stage, I just want to gather information. I know that crossovers and everything else is very imporant. I asked for other shops because I want to know what is out there for purchase. Is it possible to get the drivers from those top name companies somewhere? Can you build your own version of their speakers? What is available? Is parts express the place to go?

 

[annunaki]

Parts express is quite good.

Madisound has very good drivers and selection but is a bit more expensive. They have some really nice Scanspeak kits but they run close to $1K.

I believe Solen sells drivers as well.

If you have yet to build a speaker or don't know much about it do research first. Read up and learn. Even the best DIY'ers still keep learning new things and experimenting. You should start with a very basic kit in which you must build everything yourself including the crossover. It will really help you get a better understanding. For that I would suggest Parts Express.

Check out this thread: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35970

 

[Swerd]

Speaker parts
Parts Express
Madisound
Zalytron

Web info
Parts Express Project Showcase
Curt's Speaker Building Pages
Murphyblaster
Zaph Audio
Speakerbuilder.net
RJB Audio

Books Speakerbuilding 201 by Ray Alden

 

[annunaki]

The Zaph Audio site is great. Thanks.

 

[density]

thanks everyone for some more information.

I've asked my friend to bring me the books he has on the subject. I'll start reading. I've also been reading the forums and help topics in parts express.

I've got another question.

Flatness is, of course, very important in speakers. I would like something that gives a good flat response. I've seen pretty pictures illustrating how flat speakers are. Great.

Another feature is something like clairity. How well the speakers can seperate out complex music. This one is very important to me. It's one of the reasons I like my Grado's so much, I can pick apart anything and hear everything clearly. How do I find drivers that are not only flat, but also give great clairity?

(I've read things like some guy who used to have b&w 801's, but bought some merlin's. He was listening to a favorite track and realized for the first time that the vocals were two voices, not just one. If I spend that much money on speakers, I want detail!)

 

[density]

Ok, sorry for a double post, I don't seem to be able to edit my post. If I'm missing the button, I'm sorry, and please let me know where to look.

So, I'm trying to read more. I guess that individual drivers have less to do with muddiness than the speaker as a whole. That muddiness is more from intermodulation distortion and such.

reading reading reading.

 

[Swerd]

Another feature is something like clairity. How well the speakers can seperate out complex music. This one is very important to me. It's one of the reasons I like my Grado's so much, I can pick apart anything and hear everything clearly. How do I find drivers that are not only flat, but also give great clairity? ...If I spend that much money on speakers, I want detail!

Your earlier questions were easy to answer, your second is a bit harder. Just the same, welcome to the world of DIY speaker building. I don't think there is any one single feature of a speaker that determines clarity or detail.

I look for smooth frequency response, on and off-axis across the midrange - the most important frequencies for audio. That would be roughly 500-2,500 Hz. This includes the crossover region for nearly all 2-way speakers. There are plenty of crossovers that create a dip of 3-5 dB in the response curve around the crossover frequencies. I describe that sound as veiled (the opposite of too bright). Other people seem to like it. So you need to hear it for yourself.

Another feature is the cone material of the woofer. This can be polypropylene; paper (with and without various coatings); fibers such as fiberglass, graphite, or kevlar; and various thin metals. The ideal cone material would be infinitely light and rigid. Theory has it that when a cone moves back and forth in a rigid piston-lke manner, it makes the best and most detailed sound. Every cone does this within a certain range, and above that, it begins to flex, muddying any detail and even creating harsh sounding "break up" noise. Softer cones, undergo a more gradual transition from rigid motion to flexing, and the stiffer cones rapidly go from rigid to very noisy flexing. So there is a tradeoff.

The materials I listed start out with the more flexible and end with the most rigid. So you might think that the aluminum or magnesium alloy cones would be best. Not so fast. While most polypropylene cones are out of favor these days, there are plenty of drivers with coated paper cones or metal that produce excellent detail. Remember that a metal driver produces much louder break-up noise at frequencies above the crossover point. They usually require greater filtering of that noise by the crossover. Many people hear that kind of harsh sound and think it is caused by a poor tweeter because it may be in the 4-7 kHz range. But it is really caused by insufficient filtering of woofer break-up noise. Paper cones usually present less of a problem for the crossover designer, and can result in very good sounding speakers.

Again, you have to listen to some for yourself. In the websites I listed above, Murphyblaster and RJB Audio favor paper midwoofers, and Zaph Audio prefers aluminum midwooofers. All are good designs.

 

[annunaki]

As far as clarity is concerned, cabinet resonance can be a big issue there. The midrange frequencies are notoriuous for causing unwanted resonances in many enclosures. It will be VERY important to take into account proper bracing techniques, driver isolation, and frequency absorbtion inside the cabinet. Proper enclosure design to minimize and or negate resonances can make even a mediocre driver shine. Having a resonance free or near resonance free cabinet will improve clarity to help achieve the detail you are after. Check out B&W's bracing techniques and driver isolation solutions for ideas. Using different techniques together can yield superb results.

 

[density]

Thanks, both of you, for the replies.

I've got a while before I do anything. I'm picking up the book from my friend tonight (I'll find out which book it is then). I'll see what I can't pull from there.

cabinet resonance can be a big issue there

Yeah, I know that one. I helped a different friend out with the build on his speakers. We did everything we could to keep them from resonance. In the end, though, we didn't really approach things scientifically. I'll try to better it with my design.

I'm looking at the Zaph ZD5 build carefully. It looks nice, but will take some work.

I'm thinking hard of picking up a Behringer ECM8000, and downloading the Room EQ software (unless anyone has better suggestions). I think I'll do some work with it against my Polks. Learn some that way.

I can afford 50 bucks for a mic right now, but don't really want to spend 250 bucks on software to design crossovers. I imagine this could be done by hand, but... my calculus is not perfect.

is there any usable freeware (or possibly cheapware) for designing crossovers that I could start with? I will be reading, but think it would be nice to have something to play with. Especially if I want to try my hand at correcting my Polks some (I've seen some howtos on my rear speakers, but not the fronts, course I've just kinda started looking. And would still like to try my hand at designing a fix rather than take someone's word)

Again, thanks for the past replies, and thanks for anything yet to come!

 

[Swerd]

is there any usable freeware (or possibly cheapware) for designing crossovers that I could start with? I will be reading, but think it would be nice to have something to play with. Especially if I want to try my hand at correcting my Polks some (I've seen some howtos on my rear speakers, but not the fronts, course I've just kinda started looking. And would still like to try my hand at designing a fix rather than take someone's word)

Speaker Workshop is available free. I haven't used it so I can't comment about it.

I decided a few years ago to learn as much as possible about DIY speaker building, but to avoid throwing my money at measuring/design gear. It is one thing to have the tools, and another to use them well. There are many good designs published on the internet. I view them like cooking and recipes. I can follow a good recipe, but I am not a chef.

I noticed you are from Maryland. There are quite a few DIY speaker builders in the Washington, DC area. Some of them are very experienced and very good, such as Dennis Murphy. Usually there is an informal annual meeting at someone's house where people bring their new efforts. It is a great way to listen and learn a lot in one day.

 

[density]

thanks. I sent Dennis Murphy an email about that. Sounds like a good time, and a good place to learn.

I have more things to toss around:

1) My friend is really pushing the D'Appolito setup of a woofer above and below the tweeter. What are people's opinions of this setup? Are there strengths, weaknesses? Do you think there is a better setup?

2) Are there opinions about accuton speakers, the still expensive ceramic ones? The most I've gotten is that they are expensive (well, yes, they are), and that the woofers start breaking up around 1khz (but that's what the crossover is for, right?) They look like they have very very little distortion, but, can a good speaker be made from them? Should I worry less, and just get good and easily usable drivers?
**EDIT** just found some more information, that makes them look a bit less attractive.

3) this is related to 1. I'm thinking of picking up D'Appolito's book about testing different speaker types. Has anyone read that one, opinions?

thanks again, and once more... I've probably got a year before I buy anything that will go into a speaker cabinet. I'm just collecting. You can yell at me, but don't worry. I'm not buying anything.

 

[Swerd]

1) My friend is really pushing the D'Appolito setup of a woofer above and below the tweeter. What are people's opinions of this setup? Are there strengths, weaknesses? Do you think there is a better setup?

3) this is related to 1. I'm thinking of picking up D'Appolito's book about testing different speaker types. Has anyone read that one, opinions?

The D'Appolito set up, or midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer (MTM) design as it is often called, can be very good. It's louder than a similar MT design with just one midwoofer, and can produce better bass output with the right type of cabinet. When sitting upright (as they are intended to be) they have broader vertical dispersion compared to an MT. They are said to have a different "midrange presentation" than 2-way speakers have, but I'm not certain what is meant by that.

The obvious downside is that you have to buy four midwoofers instead of two. Another possible downside is that they can have impedance less than 4 ohms if two 8 ohm midwoofs are wired in parallel. This might require a more capable amplifier. However, this is not required - I've seen designs using two 4 ohm midwoofs in series to produce 8 ohms overall that are an easy load for any receiver. A design that has made me very curious is the TriTrix floorstander. Another good MTM design is by Roman Bednarik.

I haven't seen the book you mentioned, but the author is known for his large body of excellent work. Roman Bednarik's website has several articles about using Speaker Workshop that you might find useful.

2) Are there opinions about accuton speakers, the still expensive ceramic ones? The most I've gotten is that they are expensive (well, yes, they are), and that the woofers start breaking up around 1khz (but that's what the crossover is for, right?) They look like they have very very little distortion, but, can a good speaker be made from them? Should I worry less, and just get good and easily usable drivers?
**EDIT** just found some more information, that makes them look a bit less attractive.

Accuton drivers are very expensive. Part of what makes DIY so attractive is that you can build very good sounding speakers for very little cost. For example the Tritrix. I personally don't think Accuton drivers are worth the cost. If they really start breaking up at 1 kHz (what size are they?), there are many other drivers that will do better than that.

If there is a DC DIY meeting this fall, send me a PM and I'll see you there .

 

[audiofox]

A great reference for serious (and casual) DIY speaker enthusiasts is the DIY Speaker mailing list (shades of old school Internet, Batman!). The pertinent info is below (from the latest digest received in my mailbox today):

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