Where do I start!?

[jrw222]

My apologies in advance because there must be a million threads like this already. I am a begining HT enthusiast, and like all I'm sure, I am enamored with the high-dollar AV receivers available today. Without getting into separates (my wife would kill me), I want to get something nice; however, I have read many times that the receiver is not what makes the system. I therefore need some help. My main restrictions are the wife-factor (asthetics), room (family room, not a devoted theater), and acoustics. I want to use the systme for movies obviously, but I also want something that will treat our ears well when listening to Diana Krall and Miles Davis.

Wife-factor: I'll figure this one out

The room and acoustics: The room I will be using is a family room with three walls. The "fourth" wall is absent and opens into a spacious kitchen. The ceiling hieght is around 30 feet and a balcony resides over the rear of the listening area. All walls are wood or drywall, and the floor is tile, soon to have a larger area rug. The diminsions are around 14X20X30 (>8000 cf).

Music: mmmm.... can't wait.

I have looked at the Yamaha RX-V2500 and the similarly priced Denon 3805. My first question is: do I need to spend so much on a receiver for the room and needs I have? There is such a large selection of receivers out there for half the price pushing the same power to all 7 channels as these two bad boys.

Next: Is there any advantage to the RX-V series over the RX or HTR series when looking at Yamahas?

Finally: Do I want to save my money, shop on-line or at Circuit City and spend the extra on good speakers and a nice TV (or the nice jewelry I may have to use as collateral)?

I suppose this leads us to speakers: with the large room, I've been thinking standing floor speakers with their own subs at the four posts (for a 5.1 setup) may be the best way to go since the acoustics may be funny or boomy. I guess we can save spekers for another discussion tho.

Thanks so much in advance. I am so glad to see there is a website dedicated to the HT enthusiast!

JRW222

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

JRW,

First off, start at the home page of Audioholics. Get all the info Clint, Gene and staff have outlined off this page. Spend a few days, reading a few articles a day. There is so much, and most of the readers here sometimes assume everyone has read this info. Many have not. It's priceless info. Here's two to start off with about 100 watt receivers:

www.audioholics.com/FAQs/equalpowerratings.php

www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/receiverpower.php

Then delve into these when you get a moment:

www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/index.php

 

[zumbo]

I wouldn't get any less than the 2500 or 3805. I have the RX-V1400. Just didn't have enough oomph to do the job. Ended up adding an external amp. But, in my situation, a 2400(next model up at the time) might not have been enough either. I purchased some very demanding 4ohm speakers with a low sensitivity.

I would demo the 2500 & 3805 to see which you prefer. Pay close attention to the remotes and how they function. You will spend alot of time with them after the purchase.

As for speakers, If money and Wife permit, go with floorstanders up front and bookshelves in the rear. I went with floorstanders in the rear, they were not needed. But, I got a great deal, and I have cats. I think my bookshelves would have ended up in the floor. Look for speakers that are 8ohm with a sensitivity of 89dB or higher. This will assure you get the best performance and reliability out of your receiver.

 

[jaxvon]

First off: Read those articles!

Secondly: check out the Rocket speakers at AV123. They're really pretty, which should help with the whole wife factor. Plus, their prices and sound are pretty good too!

 

[Tom Andry]

Alright. Where do I start?

I was in your position a number of years ago. I felt overwhelmed by all the different possibilities of speakers, receivers, separates, amps, players, etc. Not to mention room acoustics. If I were you (and I was you) I would focus on one thing at a time.

I'd start with picking out what room will house your system (sounds like you've done that). This will determine the size of speakers, amount of power, etc. that you will need.

Next I'd pick speakers. Speakers must be matched to the size of your room. If you have a large room, make sure you have speakers that will be able to push enough sound to fill the space. Your room is fairly large. Ask around the forums, state how much you want to spend (do yourself a favor and multiply you budget by .667 so that all the suggestions for spending more than your budget will fall in your budget) and size of room, and you’ll get more suggestions than you’ll ever need. Better yet, use the search function and read all the other answers to the exact same question asked here daily.

Next I'd pick the receiver of pre/pro. The size of your room, the type of speaker, impedance of speaker, efficiency of speaker, and the number/type of inputs/outputs will guide your decision. 4 ohm highly inefficient speakers need a lot of power, 8ohm highly efficient speakers don't. Plan on connecting a bunch of equipment? Make sure the receiver or pre/pro can handle it. Oh, and don’t forget to include 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 and processing (DTS, Pro Logic IIx) in your equation.

Lastly, I'd worry about room acoustics. I say deal with this last because 1) it's the most confusing, 2) you can only do so much on a limited budget. If you said that money was no object, I would suggest that you build the perfect room first then worry about everything else. For joe average (like me) I have an imperfect room, with tons of acoustical issues, and no chance that I'll be able convince my wife to make drastic room modifications. Get the equipment first, then figure out what you can do to make the room as good as you can.

You'll notice that I didn't mention displays, dvds, cds, TiVo's, etc. I feel that these choices are a lot easier to make. How far back from the tv are you going to sit, multiply that distance by .667 and that's the largest screen you should get. Do you want HD? Is SACD or DVD-A important to you? Do you want TiVo? These are yes or no questions. From that point it is just figuring out which unit(s) have the features you want for a price you can live with.

If you take these things in steps, rather than trying to decide everything at once, you’ll ensure that you are considering all the things you need/want, are not overlooking something (like number of inputs, speaker impedance), and are not overwhelmed by all the choices out there.

 

[zumbo]

jrw222. Sensitivity/ Efficiency. Same thing.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

The receiver should really be third on your "Must research" list after the display and loudspeakers (Some people invest ridiculous amount of money in a super-powerful reciever only to buy the most worthless garbage speakers).In my humble opinion: Loudspeakers (and the sub) should really be at least half of your total home theater investment (also including the display, receiver, amps, cabling, and source components).

 

[9f9c7z]

I am new to ht also. This stuff isn’t cheap, so I have been reading, researching, looking, listening, and talking with people for months. Technical info goes into one bucket, subjective in another. All of it gets considered. By far, this web site has been the most informative…great articles. We saved a ton of $$$ on cabling. I ended up building all of our own cables. Currently researching the ability to DIY HDMI cables. DVI cables are very much DIY’able if you want to take the time to do it.

As Mrnomas and R&R Ninji mentions, we started with speakers, allowing only minor constraints for aesthetics (how they looked). We like the way Vienna Acoustics sound and they don’t impact the décor too much. The subwoofer took a couple months to narrow down before ordering. We had no way to hear the sub before buying so the ability to return it for a full refund was important. Actually, we will not commit to the purchase of any of our ht equipment without the being able to audition it in the home and return it for a full refund if we are not happy with what we see/hear. The cost of this stuff is too high to have to accept something that isn’t fully functional, looks good, and sounds good in our environment where it will be used/enjoyed in. The exception seems to be the processor; they all seem to have some short-coming(s) somewhere. That’s where I am stuck, trying to decide on which processor to get.

Also as Mrnomas mentions, ht for us has not been a big ‘project’ as much as it has been a series of smaller, more manageable projects that, if taken one at a time, shouldn’t keep you up too late at night.

 

[annunaki]

jrw222. Sensitivity/ Efficiency. Same thing.

No they are not.

Sensitivity is expressed in db/meter with 1 watt or 2.83 volts. Example:
93db at 1 watt/ 1meter at 8 ohms.

Efficency is a percentage. How effectively a driver turns wattage into motion. Most speakers are >1% efficent. The rest is turned into heat. That is why cooling on driver is so important.

 

[annunaki]

The receiver should really be third on your "Must research" list after the display and loudspeakers (Some people invest ridiculous amount of money in a super-powerful reciever only to buy the most worthless garbage speakers).In my humble opinion: Loudspeakers (and the sub) should really be at least half of your total home theater investment (also including the display, receiver, amps, cabling, and source components).[/QUOTE]


I COMPLETELY agree!

 

[zumbo]

No they are not.

Sensitivity is expressed in db/meter with 1 watt or 2.83 volts. Example:
93db at 1 watt/ 1meter at 8 ohms.

Efficency is a percentage. How effectively a driver turns wattage into motion. Most speakers are >1% efficent. The rest is turned into heat. That is why cooling on driver is so important.

My responses were given in Sensitivity.
mrnomas responses were given in Efficiency.

I was trying to make it easier for jrw222 to understand what mrnomas was meaning. He was meaning Sensitivity in his statement.

I have seen speaker specs given using either term followed by ...dB/...volts 1meter. Or just as Efficiency/db as linked below.

look

 

[Tom Andry]

Doh! Look at all the problems I caused by careless posting. I often get my terminology mixed up. My humblest apologies.

I'd also like to state that my post above should have stressed that the list was based off of MY personal experience. I knew when I started searching for HT upgrades that a new TV was not going to happen. While my wife will take my word for it that the receiver and speakers need to be upgraded, she can CLEARLY SEE that the TV works just fine (no matter that it is 10+ years old and practically needs a crank to start it).

I also feel that the choices for displays are more clearly delineated into groups (CRT, LCD, Plasma, rear projection, front projection) that can be used to narrow down your choices considerably. Plus room size, room layout, and budget will easily remove many options leaving you with a fairly manageable list. Speakers (and to some extent receivers) tend to be more...controversial (or maybe subjective?)...and therefore harder to narrow into a few good choices.

Everyone's priorities (and situations) are different, my list reflects mine.

 

[Mega2000]

for the 2500 and the 3805, what made me go with the yami was the controler of the denon. I hated the touch screen remote. if it wasnt for that i would have got the denon.

 

[zumbo]

Doh! Look at all the problems I caused by careless posting. I often get my terminology mixed up. My humblest apologies.

I'd also like to state that my post above should have stressed that the list was based off of MY personal experience. I knew when I started searching for HT upgrades that a new TV was not going to happen. While my wife will take my word for it that the receiver and speakers need to be upgraded, she can CLEARLY SEE that the TV works just fine (no matter that it is 10+ years old and practically needs a crank to start it).

I also feel that the choices for displays are more clearly delineated into groups (CRT, LCD, Plasma, rear projection, front projection) that can be used to narrow down your choices considerably. Plus room size, room layout, and budget will easily remove many options leaving you with a fairly manageable list. Speakers (and to some extent receivers) tend to be more...controversial (or maybe subjective?)...and therefore harder to narrow into a few good choices.

Everyone's priorities (and situations) are different, my list reflects mine.

It wasn't careless posting. Some manufacturers list it as Efficiency as you stated. I posted a link showing Polk Audio uses this terminology.

 

[awesomebase]

Ensure balance

The important thing to remember is that you balance your budget and ensure that you include everything that you need. The biggest mistake people make is assuming that you only need a couple of things and omitting some of the obvious parts that enhance your experience.
For example, if you have a limited budget, it is better to get speakers, cabling, and a receiver that are closely matched than to go all-out on a receiver/speaker system and loose out on the others unless you feel that you will be upgrading the others soon. While getting a good receiver is a must, it will only provide you as much satisfaction as your speaker's ability to reproduce that sound. In other words, don't get a $2K or $3K receiver and $200 speakers... you're wasting money unless you plan to upgrade the speakers soon.
Another important aspect is to ensure that you have enough sound-absorption in your room. By the sounds of it, you may have some big issues. For one thing, you have a room that is very tall. Secondly, your floor is tile (though a big area-rug will help). Thirdly, as with my family room, the "fourth" wall is missing. So you have a lot to contend with there. It would greatly help you if you took a look at some of the DIY sound-insulating articles here. There are some good DIY articles on cabling as well. People often don't budget enough for cables and the costs there can be more than you expect.
I use Klipsch speakers for my family room, and they sound great! I'm still picking out a receiver (using an older one right now), but, there was a substantial difference between the Klipsch speakers and my BOSE speakers. I'm using the reference series which have good balance and great cabinets. Also, when looking at receivers, you need to evaluate what your goal is for sound. Are you trying to achieve the best sound? or do you want something very powerful? or do you want something very efficient? or well-balanced? Sometimes you'll see receivers that offer every new feature, but, on the whole they may not do anything very well, whereas other receivers may do only so much technologically, but produce very good sound and ample power. If you don't imagine yourself using any of the new features within a year of buying the receiver, it is better off not to buy it just for having those features as they may change or may be improved upon anyway with newer models. In your case, I would hazard a guess that, given your room size, you definitely need something that will give you good power without distortion as you will already have several accoustical challenges to deal with. Here are some receiver suggestions (I'm sure others will add to this list):

• Denon 3805
• HK DPR 2005
• Pioneer Elite VSX-56txi
• Yamaha RV-2500

 

[tbewick]

Audioholics have system suggestions based around a target budget on their front page. I've also seen that What Hi-Fi? feature this in their magazine, and I'd go with one of these sets of suggestions.

Frankly, I don't know enough about how speakers/amplifiers work to know if this is true or not, but what is apparently quite important is how well the components match. At least by going for a recommended combination of amp, speakers, etc. you will be sure that they'll sound good together.

Also I'd suggest you use a good hi-fi dealer. They will be able to give you some good advice on what to get based on your requirements.

In regards to acoustical treatment, (bass traps, acoustical panels etc.), I'd forget it for the moment. You'll probably find standing waves are the most troublesome acoustical effect (boomy bass), but moving your speakers around should help to nullify this problem.

Generally:

- move your speakers away from the walls (esp. corners) if you find the bass boomy.
- the listening position should be as far away from the walls as possible.

Although this is sometimes debated, in my experience, I've found that full-range speakers are more likely to sound boomy is a small room.

I'd also suggest you visit the Bowers & Wilkins website FAQ, which has some useful hi-fi tips.

 

[jrw222]

Wait for RX-V4600?

Wow. A ton to digest. Thanks for the help from everyone thusfar.

After reading the comments and some of the articles I've been referred to, I feel better about my initial decisions to go with a higher dollar processor. This raises another question, though: is there anything about the RX-V4600 that might make it worth waiting? Also, is there any specific time of year when new receivers start coming out? I know the RX-V4600 is due out in June, can we expect more to come in June from other manufacturers like Denon? Will I be buying yesterdays technology if I go for anRX-V2500 or a Denon 3805?

JRW222

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Great question. My suggestion is wait. We all know how fast time goes by. If your budget permits, Yamaha and Denon have some awesome receivers about to come out. You mentioned one - the Denon 4806. Yamaha is also coming out with a new line with XM Satellite reception. You might see a RXV 2600 and 1600. Marantz has a new SR8500 just out. They are all more advanced than the Denon 3805 and Yammi 2500. Wait until fall, and the prices will drop. It's a waiting game. I'm sure someone will compare the RXV4600 and Denon 4806. Seems like a good matchup. Just remember, it all boils down to sound, and sound is more than just a receiver - be it new or old technology.

 

[jrw222]

Good point. I still have my first receiver a bought with money I saved from a paper route: a Pioneer Computer Controlled Stereo SX-6. Must go back to the early 80s, and I found in the early 90s that it sounded better than the stuff coming from Sony, etc. So I kept it hooked up to my homemade 3-ways with passive crossover and MTX 12" subs and ports I made from 5" PVC pipe, and it still makes me happy because it sounds good.

Has Denon released much on the 4806?

 

[flyv65]

Speakers first. Don't look at receivers (except perepherally as the speakers dictate) untill you've settled on the thing that will make the most drastic change in the sound of your system (with the possible exception of acoustics). Receivers, pre/pros, and integrated amps seem to change and update with fair frequency; but good speakers you'll keep years, even decades...I'd put the bulk of my budget into speakers that I like *and* meet my room needs.

Bryan...just my two cents...