When are we out of the entry level woods?

[oscar6036]

Seems pretty much anything that is attainable to a good percentage of us get the "its good for an entry level system" tag thrown on them. So, I'm just wondering is there some sort of set dollar amount we have to spend to gain some kind've acceptance to some of the audiophiles around here? Or is it a particular item. Just curious.

 

[Audioholics]

If you base it on price, I think that you tend to hit "mid-fi" around $900 on a receiver, $3000 on speakers (including sub) and there's no real determiner for transports right now, though most decent universal DVD players find themselves priced from $700 and up.

Price is hardly the determiner of hi-fi and mid-fi, but it gets you the general idea - at least based on my knowledge of the current products and their pricing...

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I would even go so far as to say some units like HK635, Yamaha 2500/5890, Denon 3805, Pioneer 1015 and 53/55/56TX, Onkyo 801/901, JVC DP10, etc... are decent "mid-fi" receivers. You don't have to spend that kind of dough for acceptance around here. If you match up an HK235 to some higher spl speakers, you've started off on the right foot. It's not about acceptance, but more about matching up the right speakers to the right receiver. I would say a majority of the inquiries/topics concerning receivers are in the $300-$700US range. The units listed above are nice because they feature "pre-outs" that allow a separate amp to be utilized to drive separate sepakers, if the need arises.

 

[cornelius]

It's definitely not about acceptance, and the audiophiles are often more confused than the novices.

My rule of thumb is $1000 for the mains, then sprinkle in the surrounds...
Even though I'm running an integrated for my two channel set-up, I prefer seperates for HT, so I agree that having a receiver with pre-outs is a great idea.

 

[agarwalro]

Spending money? Qualify that !!!

Someone spent a few thousand dollars on a Bose HTIB, and now wants to know what people think of his/ her audio excersion. No one here would call that person an Audioholic. Maybe, Audioidiot.

 

[kay]

If you match up an HK235 to some higher spl speakers, you've started off on the right foot.

Since when is SPL a substitute for fidelity?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Since when is SPL a substitute for fidelity?

Who said the search stops after you find a speaker with a high spl? If this is all you have to drive the speakers, I recommend avoiding speakers that need big power. An HK235 is an entry level unit. Are you going to drive electrostats or a set of 86dB 8ohm "high fidelity" speakers with that unit? Doesn't matter if they have spectacular fidelity - you'll never hear it without the proper amp.

 

[MacManNM]

Who said the search stops after you find a speaker with a high spl? If this is all you have to drive the speakers, I recommend avoiding speakers that need big power. An HK235 is an entry level unit. Are you going to drive electrostats or a set of 86dB 8ohm "high fidelity" speakers with that unit? Doesn't matter if they have spectacular fidelity - you'll never hear it without the proper amp.

Are you nuts? SPL means absolutely nothing, you should buy a pair of $10,000 front towers, and use a $199 receiver to drive them. It will drive them no matter what. And sound awesome.

 

[MDS]

Buckeye is not talking about output SPL at the listening position. He is talking about the speaker's sensitivity rating and I assume arguing that speakers with a higher sensitivity would be better to mate with a lower powered amp than low sensitivity speakers. While higher sensitivity speakers will require slightly less power from the amp, any receiver can drive 86 dB sensitive speakers to insane levels unless the room is very large.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

So, I'm just wondering is there some sort of set dollar amount we have to spend to gain some kind've acceptance to some of the audiophiles around here? Or is it a particular item. Just curious.

If it's acceptance your looking for be knowledgeable! There is alot of audiophiles on this site that can't come close to the $$$ clint gave us. Anyway I belive that saving money (not spending it) is the second biggest topic on this site behind sound quality. Spend what YOU are ok with, buy what sounds good to you, and help others on this site do the same!!!

Entry level to me could also refer to how much knowledge is needed to operate a piece of equipment, or set it up. I know this doesn't really hold true for some things but if i own a Ferrarri that doesn't make me a great driver.



btw I'm new here and have had nothing but a positve experience!!!

 

[MacManNM]

any receiver can drive 86 dB sensitive speakers to insane levels unless the room is very large.

Absolutely not true. Lets see you drive a pair of 86 db 4 ohm speakers to even a reasonable level with a 40 w/ch amp.

 

[Audioholics]

Anyway I believe that saving money (not spending it) is the second biggest topic on this site behind sound quality.

Amen. Tricky subject, but education is key. I certainly don't think anyone should be spending money in lieu of simply making smart purchases.

 

[MDS]

Are you nuts? SPL means absolutely nothing, you should buy a pair of $10,000 front towers, and use a $199 receiver to drive them. It will drive them no matter what. And sound awesome.

So I suppose you were being facetious when you said that. You should have added a sarcasm emoticon if that is how you meant it.

Secondly, I like how you pick one specific example to prove a general point. Who said anything about 4 Ohm speakers? NORMAL 8 Ohm nominal speakers with a sensitivity of 86 dB can be driven to reference level easily with a 'low end' receiver.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

NORMAL 8 Ohm nominal speakers with a sensitivity of 86 dB can be driven to reference level easily with a 'low end' receiver.

Wouldn't reference level be different on a 40 wpc receiver opposed to a 170 wpc receiver? How low of a "low end" receiver are we talking? Insignia? Would that unit even produce "fidelity" or approach reference levels without audible distortion?

 

[MacManNM]

So I suppose you were being facetious when you said that. You should have added a sarcasm emoticon if that is how you meant it.

Secondly, I like how you pick one specific example to prove a general point. Who said anything about 4 Ohm speakers? NORMAL 8 Ohm nominal speakers with a sensitivity of 86 dB can be driven to reference level easily with a 'low end' receiver.

4 ohm 8 ohm it's just 3 db. Besides most of the low spl speakers are 4 0hms

Ok, well, I could get into a long drawn out technical example of how you have a 1/r^2 falloff in sound pressure as you increase distance from a source. I could also go into how much power it takes to reproduce transient peaks of music. Or I could go into dynamic range, and what that really means in a home audio setup. But I won't.

What are "insane levels "? Are they the same as reference levels?

Is it 90 db spl, 100? How far away from the drivers are you? Is the room reflective? In a room with tile walls, ceilings, and floors?

I'll try and make sure I use the sarcasm icons next time, don't want to be misunderstood.

 

[MDS]

You are funny MacManNM. You are implying that you have some deep understanding of the physics of sound that nobody else has and you could enlighten me (or anyone else for that matter), but you won't. No need, I know all about it.

An 8 ohm nominal speaker with a sensitivity rating of 86 dB will produce 86 dB of SPL 1 meter from the speaker when fed 1 watt of power. Nobody sits one meter from the speaker. The majority of people here know that sound decreases as the square of the distance. Everybody knows that transients can demand up to 10x the power. Yes 'insane levels' are reference levels (Dolby Reference level = 105 dB PEAK), and in a typical living room that is extremely loud and can easilly be achieved with a fairly modest receiver.

 

[MacManNM]

You are funny MacManNM. You are implying that you have some deep understanding of the physics of sound that nobody else has and you could enlighten me (or anyone else for that matter), but you won't. No need, I know all about it.

An 8 ohm nominal speaker with a sensitivity rating of 86 dB will produce 86 dB of SPL 1 meter from the speaker when fed 1 watt of power. Nobody sits one meter from the speaker. The majority of people here know that sound decreases as the square of the distance. Everybody knows that transients can demand up to 10x the power. Yes 'insane levels' are reference levels (Dolby Reference level = 105 dB PEAK), and in a typical living room that is extremely loud and can easilly be achieved with a fairly modest receiver.

To hit 104 db spl @ 3 M you would need 64 w/ch, you can clearly see that a 40w/ch receiver won't do that.

Now take the 96 db speaker, which only takes 32 w/ch to reach 105db spl @ 3 M. A job that a 40 w/ch receiver can do.

So the simple answer is, a modest receiver (40 W/ch), can't drive 86 db speakers to reference levels in a normal listening environment. Unless you are clipping the amp.

 

[PENG]

To hit 104 db spl @ 3 M you would need 64 w/ch, you can clearly see that a 40w/ch receiver won't do that.

Now take the 96 db speaker, which only takes 32 w/ch to reach 105db spl @ 3 M. A job that a 40 w/ch receiver can do.

So the simple answer is, a modest receiver (40 W/ch), can't drive 86 db speakers to reference levels in a normal listening environment. Unless you are clipping the amp.

I thought MDS was talking about "peak". I did a search to confirm that Dolby reference level is 85 dB with volume set to "0" when fed with a test tone (you have to pick a distance to calculate the power required), but peaks at 105 dB. THX reference is 75 dB and peaks at 105 dB as well. Interestly, my 3805 (not THX certified) seems to match up closely with THX, measured from around 3.5M.

If we are talking about something like a HKAVR235, I would agree that it won't be able to achieve 105 dB at 3M, when presented with a 86 dB speaker, but it should be able to do 85 dB easily. Bottom line is, I agree with Buck, that it won't sound too good. Loud, may be, but not good.

 

[MacManNM]

I thought MDS was talking about "peak". I did a search to confirm that Dolby reference level is 85 dB with volume set to "0" when fed with a test tone (you have to pick a distance to calculate the power required), but peaks at 105 dB. THX reference is 75 dB and peaks at 105 dB as well. Interestly, my 3805 (not THX certified) seems to match up closely with THX, measured from around 3.5M.

If we are talking about something like a HKAVR235, I would agree that it won't be able to achieve 105 dB at 3M, when presented with a 86 dB speaker, but it should be able to do 85 dB easily. Bottom line is, I think we all agree with Buck, that it won't sound too good. Loud, may be, but not good.

True, the amp has to have the dynamic range and headroom to get to that peak. I'm just trying to show how much power it really takes to reproduce todays digital sources. You almost need 10 db of headroom.

 

[Nick250]

Bottom line is, I think we all agree with Buck, that it won't sound too good. Loud, may be, but not good.

Who do you speak for when you say "we"? Not a good thing to speak for others. And as has been mentioned already in this thread the answer is "it depends". What size is the room? what is the efficiency of the speakers?, is there a powered subwoofer to take some of the load off of the receiver? what are the room acoustics etc, etc. IMHO if the receiver has enough juice to adequately drive the speakers, then it's speaker choice and room acoustics that really matter.