What's the difference??

[wafflebird]

OK,

Maybe a dumb question but one I have to ask due to the slow process of upgrading. I have a Kenwood (cheap) receiver in my bedroom. It does not have an LFE output for a sub, it was part of a HTiB that was purchased years ago that came with a passive sub. I am looking at buying a small powered sub for my bedroom, as the passive sub that came with it is much less than impressive. CC has the Infinity PS-8 on sale for $150.00. It will fit where the passive is just fine, I live in a Condo and can't go too big or loud in the bedroom. My question is what is the actual difference in the signal sent to the sub between speaker wires, and a sub cable. I have never seen this discussed and I am just curious. Is it the same? The receiver is DD capable and really does A-OK in the bedroom (since I upgraded the center, and R&L fronts) but the sub stinks. So is there a difference in what is sent to the sub between speaker cables and a sub cable? I will replace the receiver in due time, but for now this is the next step. I want to do this first as most receivers I wish to upgrade to do not have speaker wire outputs for the sub so the passive sub will be worthless to me. Chime in please guys and let me know if there is a difference.

Thanks.

 

[highfihoney]

you should be ok with the new powered sub that you want,the difference will be that by running the active sub via the speaker wires the sub now recieves its signal by taking a small sample of power from the speaker wires then sending the rest through to the speaker out's on the back of the sub.

 

[majorloser]

The only disadvantage I can see with the Infinity PS-8 for your case is that it does not have speaker level outputs. If your current speakers are fed through your subwoofer than more than likely there is an internal crossover to filter out the low frequency signal going to the main speakers. Using the Infinity PS-8 in parallel to the mains will cause a full range signal to be delivered to your speakers.

Personally, in that price range I'd look at the Onix X-sub:
http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=subwoofers&brand=57

It's an 8" sub that's 150 watts with a few more features.

 

[Nick250]

you should be ok with the new powered sub that you want,the difference will be that by running the active sub via the speaker wires the sub now recieves its signal by taking a small sample of power from the speaker wires then sending the rest through to the speaker out's on the back of the sub.

I did this for about six months when the sub/lfe out on my old Onkyo 595 died. It worked fine, I did not notice any difference in sound after I made the change.

Nick

 

[Doug917]

The difference of using a Sub output from a receiver and connecting it to speaker wires is this:

When you connect speaker wires to the sub from the receiver, you send the sub a full range signal from the left and right channels. Then, you control the crossover frequency (basically select the bottom range of that full range signal you want the sub to reproduce) from the subwoofer by adjusting the crossover knob on the back of the sub. Doing things this way you get one range of sub information (usually 20Hz to 80Hz) and will miss the upper bass frequencies of the LFE track.

In comparison, if the receiver has a sub output you can control the crossover frequency with the setup menus in the receiver. The advantage to this method is you can then disable the sub's crossover so that when information below 80Hz is sent to the L/R speaker, the sub will reproduce it AND the .1 or LFE track will be able to send frequencies above 80Hz to the sub as the LFE track intended.

 

[Nick250]

The difference of using a Sub output from a receiver and connecting it to speaker wires is this:

When you connect speaker wires to the sub from the receiver, you send the sub a full range signal from the left and right channels. Then, you control the crossover frequency (basically select the bottom range of that full range signal you want the sub to reproduce) from the subwoofer by adjusting the crossover knob on the back of the sub. Doing things this way you get one range of sub information (usually 20Hz to 80Hz) and will miss the upper bass frequencies of the LFE track.

I do not think this is correct. You will not lose any LFE by running the mains through the sub. In your example LFE above 80Hz will get sent to the mains and reproduced there. If the mains are not capable of reproducing 80Hz then the crossover is set too low.

Nick

 

[Doug917]

Nick,

You are correct. I should have been more careful with my wording. My point was the sub would not be reproducing those frequencies, but instead the L/R channels would.

I usually do not recommend anyone go above 80Hz with their crossover as the bass does become lacalized (easily identifiable where it is coming from), unless of course someone has very small speakers, i.e. Bose cubes or the likes.

 

[wafflebird]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Taking all of this into account, I was simply planning (initially anyway) on running the subwoofer speaker wires to the sub only and leaving my other speakers wired up straight to the receiver. Now my receiver does not have any x-over settings in any way shape form or function (Didn't I mention cheap in the first post!! Ha Ha) so would this (using the subs cross-over) be a better way of hooking this system up. I have a pair of Infinity Primus 150's for R&L fronts. I think running them out of the sub would make use of the subs cross-over which would be a step up from the current set-up? Does the receivers power just run through the sub and then the sub adjusts what Hz goes out to the R&L fronts correct?

Again thanks for all of the responses, if you guys can clear up any mistakes stated above or let me know that it is correct I would appreciate it.

 

[Nick250]

Nick,

You are correct. I should have been more careful with my wording. My point was the sub would not be reproducing those frequencies, but instead the L/R channels would.

I usually do not recommend anyone go above 80Hz with their crossover as the bass does become lacalized (easily identifiable where it is coming from), unless of course someone has very small speakers, i.e. Bose cubes or the likes.

Gotcha. I thought might be something like that.

 

[wafflebird]

OK I have figured out a little more but a question remains

Ok,

So I have looked at some manuals and have figured out I am suppsed to wire the left and right front into the subs high level inputs and my front speakers as well, if there is no LFE output on the receiver. I have a little different receiver, it actually has speaker wire Sub outputs. I guess this is what created the delima in the first place. SO taking this into consideration I should just wire the sub wires to the input on the sub. But will it matter that I only have a single input to the sub? I do not think so but I have to ask????? The manuals say to wire both your R&L speaker inputs into the sub.

One more question, the Infinity PS-8 or a Mirage S-8, I can get the Mirage for 199.00 @ Vanns. It has a 100 watt rated and 400 watt dynamic rating. I am sure the Mirage would be a better deal?? What about it guys?

 

[majorloser]

I guess I'm missing something. Did your original receiver setup have the speaker wires for the mains running from the receiver, to the subwoofer and then to the main speakers? If so, your original sub (more than likely) had a crossover that would allow only the higher frequencies to the mains. If this is the case, then you would have to wire the Infinity PS-8 (or the Mirage Omni S8) in parallel to the mains since it has no "line level" outputs, only inputs (they call High Level). If you wired your speakers straight to the receiver, they will be receiving full range signal, which they may not be designed to handle.

If your receiver has "special" speaker wire terminals just for the sub only and separate terminals for the mains, then it has a built in amplifier for the LFE/subwoofer channel. In this case the Infinity or the Mirage will both work well and your receiver is splitting the signal between the sub and mains.

I still think you'll get a lot more Boom-for-the-Buck with the Onix X-sub. It's also $199.00 It has more connection options and 150 watt amp. Might even be able to geta deal because your an Audioholics member.

 

[wafflebird]

OK I will try not to make this too long but I got an education yesterday

OK,

First to answer your question (thanks for the input by the way majorloser) The existing receiver does not have an lfe output for a sub just, a speaker wire connection for the sub which has always been hooked up to the passive Kenwood sub.

After researching the different ways to hook the system up I went out searching yesterday. I had kind of made up my mind on the Mirage S8 sub but wanted to still do a little checking anyway. Well I ended up at our local Sound Advise (Tweeter) store, walked around and looked at their clearance items, messed around a few more minuets and was leaving when a young guy stopped me and asked me if I needed any assistance. I told him not really that I did not think they had what I was looking for but he asked and I told him. To make a long story short I left with a Velodyne VX-10. Sounded great to me (keep in mind this is for a bedroom in a condo and the price was RIGHT) and it had two (R&L) speaker inputs and two outputs. SO I could hook them up with the right and left fronts set the crossover on the sub and then run my R&L fronts off the sub with it playing the down low stuff. This thing sits behind a large tall chest-of-drawers, and the Kenwood passive sub was much larger than I remembered so the VX-10 fit easily. Anyway ran new wires to the sub and then from the sub to the mains...... uh..... not real impressed. Then I thought oh wait you have your fronts set to small, so I went in and set them to large. It made a difference but I knew something was just not right. Playing the "Fellowship of The Ring" where Gandalf first comes face to face with the Balroc, when it roars at him you should know it. My main sub in my main system room (VelodyneDLS-R3750) will make it known when that beast roars. Now I know that the VX-10 is not the same but I knew I was missing something. So I hooked my R&L back up to the receiver in the normal fashion. I was thinking, just thinking, I know my receiver does not have an LFE sub output but it does have those speaker wire outputs for the sub, and I bet that that is where this receiver is trying to send all of the LFE. SO before I took it back I decided to try and just hook the sub-out speaker wires to the R side of the VX-10.

OH.......MY..... uh I hope the neighbor was not home, uh....... I think I just figured it out. And man I feel like I just stole a sub, for the price I paid. This thing would be just fine in my living room and then some. I know, I know only 100 watts rated 150 peak but WOW. Anyway this receiver just uses speaker wire to output to the sub, and it works just fine. Still going to get a Pioneer VSX-816 for the room soon, but wow what a difference. This will be my room sub from now on. There are better more powerful subs out there but I can't go much above 1/2 gain on this and it is more than enough. Sorry for the long post but now I know that there is really no difference between the sub cable and speaker wire for my system. The LFE can travel through a sub cable or speaker wire just fine.

 

[majorloser]

Well I ended up at our local Sound Advise (Tweeter) store...

Step away from the Un-Sound Advice store!

[I have over 20 years of wonderful experiences dealing with them (not). Let's hope you NEVER have to use their service department.]

Good choice on the sub. A 10" sub is definitely better than a 8" model.


EDIT: start getting ready for Chris before this weekend. Stock up on the important hurricane supplies (beer, vodka, rum, ice, chips, snacks, etc.)

 

[wafflebird]

Not again

Hey thanks for the heads up, I really was not aware of the fact that one was out there. You live down here as well? Or close anyway? I have a generator that I have maintained this summer (run it every month, changed out the oil to Mobil 1) in hopes that I wouoldn't have to use it. You know how it goes, if you do not take care of something then you will need it, so I am trying to work the other side of that angle. Oh well it is still a few days off we will see.

 

[majorloser]

Hey thanks for the heads up, I really was not aware of the fact that one was out there. You live down here as well? Or close anyway? I have a generator that I have maintained this summer (run it every month, changed out the oil to Mobil 1) in hopes that I wouoldn't have to use it. You know how it goes, if you do not take care of something then you will need it, so I am trying to work the other side of that angle. Oh well it is still a few days off we will see.

As of today, Chris is expected to turn into a hurricane and pass somewhere over South Florida by Sunday.