What's happening to JBL?

[PhilCohen]

I don't know if it's the economy or what, but if you look at the website for JBL, their consumer loudspeaker line (for the U.S.A.) has not only not been expanding(several loudspeaker series that they introduced in recent years ended up being marketed only outside the U.S.A.), but the product line is actually SHRINKING. "Studio L" is now their top of the line product.
Combined with the news that they're closing some manufacturing facilities in favor of using other Harmon International factories, it makes you wonder if JBL will be around for much longer.
This is sad. I presently own four JBL S312II floorstanding speakers, an S-Center speaker & an S120PII subwoofer(and a spare S120PII).
I like the idea of floorstanding speakers with 12" woofers, even though the loudspeaker companies now think that it's politically incorrect and spouse-unfriendly.
I have some money set aside to possibly upgrade to better speakers, but "upgrading" to speakers with 8" woofers would be a downgrade. My idea of better speakers would be speakers with 12" woofers(like my existing speakers) but with better midrange & tweeter drivers, in speakers that you wouldn't have to be a millionaire to purchase. JBL actually does manufacture a speaker that meets my description(TL260)....then they ship them all to England, Europe & Australia so that no one on this side of the world can buy them.
Yes, as many would remind me, Legacy & Cerwin Vega still make floorstanding speakers with 12" woofers, but the Cerwin-Vega's look like(and probably sound like) discoteque/P.A. speakers and the Legacy's are quite costly and have demanding(4ohm) amplification requirements.
I wish that the major loudspeaker companies would let us(the consumer) decide whether we want floorstanding speakers with 12" woofers, or whether we require the more slender, spouse-pleasing speakers with 8" woofers. At present, at least in this market(U.S.A.), the speaker manufacturers are dictating the terms in favor of the slender speakers with puny woofers fad.
The speaker companies would probably say that consumers don't need deep bass capability in a floorstanding speaker, and small rear speakers would be adequate if they're using a subwoofer. That may be true if your main interest in surround sound is with surround sound film soundtracks. In those film soundtracks, the rear channels have mainly low level ambience, and the only deep bass content will be an occasional explosion or special effect that can be handled fine by a subwoofer.
But my main interest in surround sound is with surround sound music, specifically rock, and my requirements are different. The developers of SACD recommend full sized speakers in the rear.

 

[Knucklehead90]

I agree with you. JBL seems to be concentrating on ipod docks and computer speakers - whats up with that?

As for 12" woofers most manufacturers have eliminated most of their larger speakers in favor of smaller 6-8" woofers and almost demand that you add a sub if you like bass. But don't knock this approach if you haven't heard a decent setup with a good subwoofer. I went from tower speakers (Emotiva ERTs with dual 8" woofers) to my current Infinity Cascade 5.1 setup. It sounds very good and I don't miss large woofer speakers. The Cascade 15 sub is about the best I've heard for music - not as good for movies.

 

[highfigh]

Making things that don't sell is a good way to go under. Look around- iPods are ubiquitous and high-end audio is all but dead. Check into the number of speaker brands and then find out how many speakers are bought in a year. That alone will tell you why they're doing this.

 

[Nuance AH]

^ Good point.

Sean Olive can be found around these forums (Tonmeister), so perhaps he'll respond and give a definitive answer.

 

[AJinFLA]

I have some money set aside to possibly upgrade to better speakers, but "upgrading" to speakers with 8" woofers would be a downgrade. My idea of better speakers would be speakers with 12" woofers(like my existing speakers) but with better midrange & tweeter drivers

They appear to offer 2 models (ES90 & L890) having dual 8" woofers, with minor cosmetic differences (can't tell if the ES90 is rear ported or sealed). Dual 8" drivers would sweep only slightly less area than a single 12" (ballpark figures would be 12" - 520 cm2, 2x8" - 450 cm2, 10" - 330 cm2), so bass performance and output capability may not be that different. As far as the mids/tweets, you haven't specified what you perceive as being deficient with your current S312's, so it would be difficult to determine whether the new offerings would be any "better".
When you auditioned the ES90's and/or L890's, what did you find lacking compared to your S312's? Or is this primarily an aesthetics issue?

cheers,

AJ

 

[j_garcia]

Upgrading to something that is basically the successor to what you already have isn't really an "upgrade". If you are looking to truly upgrade, you should be out auditioning speakers in your price range.

 

[6L6X4]

I agree with the OP. Sound quality, at least what sounds good to me, is being sacrificed for aesthetics. Of course manufacturers have to offer speakers that sell, but like car engines, there's no substitute for cubic inches.

I like horn loaded speakers and big cabinets because they have slam that no puny speaker can match. For example, I listen to a lot of horn based music and I love the blat that a tuba makes through a large speaker. Once you hear that kind of gravitas, small speakers, no matter how good, sound wimpy by comparison. I've had dozens of speakers over the years and this is the conclusion I have arrived at. Others, no doubt, will differ.

 

[PhilCohen]

They appear to offer 2 models (ES90 & L890) having dual 8" woofers, with minor cosmetic differences (can't tell if the ES90 is rear ported or sealed). Dual 8" drivers would sweep only slightly less area than a single 12" (ballpark figures would be 12" - 520 cm2, 2x8" - 450 cm2, 10" - 330 cm2), so bass performance and output capability may not be that different. As far as the mids/tweets, you haven't specified what you perceive as being deficient with your current S312's, so it would be difficult to determine whether the new offerings would be any "better".
When you auditioned the ES90's and/or L890's, what did you find lacking compared to your S312's? Or is this primarily an aesthetics issue?

cheers,

AJ

Actually, there presently are no dedicated Hifi stores in my area(the northern half of Miami-Dade County,Florida), and when I bought my existing JBL speakers 6 to 7 years ago, I purchased by telephone from J&R Music world, based on JBL's reputation, since I had used JBL speakers when I had a semi-pro home recording studio(I used 4311B's).
Because of the absence of any actual Hifi dealers in my area(unless you count "Best Buy"), many audio manufacturers are selling their products through recording studio equipment dealers(That's where I got my Integra DHC 9.9 A/V processor), but these recording studio equipment dealers are only sales offices with no showroom. In short, aside from whatever speakers are being offered by "Best Buy"(& their "Magnolia Home Theater" subsidiary), it is not possible to hear a demonstration of speakers in my area.

 

[Nuance AH]

What about the JBL LSR6300 series?
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=6&MId=5

 

[mtrycrafts]

^ Good point.

Sean Olive can be found around these forums (Tonmeister), so perhaps he'll respond and give a definitive answer.

Or, visit his page
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=5

 

[dmpljim]

Thanks for this topic!

 

[highfigh]

Actually, there presently are no dedicated Hifi stores in my area(the northern half of Miami-Dade County,Florida), and when I bought my existing JBL speakers 6 to 7 years ago, I purchased by telephone from J&R Music world, based on JBL's reputation, since I had used JBL speakers when I had a semi-pro home recording studio(I used 4311B's).
Because of the absence of any actual Hifi dealers in my area(unless you count "Best Buy"), many audio manufacturers are selling their products through recording studio equipment dealers(That's where I got my Integra DHC 9.9 A/V processor), but these recording studio equipment dealers are only sales offices with no showroom. In short, aside from whatever speakers are being offered by "Best Buy"(& their "Magnolia Home Theater" subsidiary), it is not possible to hear a demonstration of speakers in my area.

You bought them over the phone and then comment on the lack of dealers in your area? Does it strike you at all that there are no dealers because people buy over the phone or online? Do you see the two as being remotely connected?

 

[PhilCohen]

You bought them over the phone and then comment on the lack of dealers in your area? Does it strike you at all that there are no dealers because people buy over the phone or online? Do you see the two as being remotely connected?

In 1993, I didn't own a computer. Even then, there were 3,perhaps 4 audio equipment dealers in my area: "Best Buy", "Circuit City"(now defunct) & the "Sound Advice" chain(now defunct, and mercifully so, since they were unethical gougers who frequently exceeded manufacturers suggested price). There was also a home theater dealer/installer(Cimax, now defunct), which was a locked-door showroom that you had to have "connections" to enter.....something that may have contributed to their demise. I didn't think that my selection of brands & models should be limited to those brands & models that have local availability. Ideally, I should be able to select from all of the major brands & models within my price range.

Even if I were to travel down to the Southern part of my county, while there would be home theater installers, they would likely be sales offices with no showroom. And English(my only language) would be a second language for the salespeople there.

I make no secret that I do seek out the best possible price, since my experiences in 44 years of buying consumer electronics showed conclusively that I had more success with repairs done by "Factory Authorized Service Centers" than repairs done by dealers, therefore high-priced "salon" dealers' "advantage" of having a repair shop on premises was never an advantage to me. On at least a few occasions, a salon dealer only pretended that they had a repair shop, then actually took the piece of equipment to a "Factory Authorized" repair shop.

I did get a great price on my JBL's: Four S312II's, an S-Center & an S120PII subwoofer for the grand total of $1719 with free shipping & no sales tax. Audiophile product they're not, though they're certainly good, and they were an incredible bargain, and the only problem I ever had was that the subwoofer's amplifier failed after the warranty ended. After an expensive repair, I found a way to prolong the lifespan of the subwoofer's amplifier by using the standby mode(and never entirely turning the unit off), and I never had any problem ever again. And when the S120PII was being discontinued, I bought a spare one for an incredible $299. I've never had to use it.

But this thread was really about JBL, not where I would buy product. Inevitably, just like with the business of selling CD's & DVD's, the public has moved away from local stores towards buying from mail-order & internet dealers. Price & selection are the reasons. There's nothing inherently wrong about internet & mail-order dealers.

 

[PhilCohen]

In 1993, I didn't own a computer. Even then, there were 3,perhaps 4 audio equipment dealers in my area: "Best Buy", "Circuit City"(now defunct) & the "Sound Advice" chain(now defunct, and mercifully so, since they were unethical gougers who frequently exceeded manufacturers suggested price). There was also a home theater dealer/installer(Cimax, now defunct), which was a locked-door showroom that you had to have "connections" to enter.....something that may have contributed to their demise. I didn't think that my selection of brands & models should be limited to those brands & models that have local availability. Ideally, I should be able to select from all of the major brands & models within my price range.

Even if I were to travel down to the Southern part of my county, while there would be home theater installers, they would likely be sales offices with no showroom. And English(my only language) would be a second language for the salespeople there.

I make no secret that I do seek out the best possible price, since my experiences in 44 years of buying consumer electronics showed conclusively that I had more success with repairs done by "Factory Authorized Service Centers" than repairs done by dealers, therefore high-priced "salon" dealers' "advantage" of having a repair shop on premises was never an advantage to me. On at least a few occasions, a salon dealer only pretended that they had a repair shop, then actually took the piece of equipment to a "Factory Authorized" repair shop.

I did get a great price on my JBL's: Four S312II's, an S-Center & an S120PII subwoofer for the grand total of $1719 with free shipping & no sales tax. Audiophile product they're not, though they're certainly good, and they were an incredible bargain, and the only problem I ever had was that the subwoofer's amplifier failed after the warranty ended. After an expensive repair, I found a way to prolong the lifespan of the subwoofer's amplifier by using the standby mode(and never entirely turning the unit off), and I never had any problem ever again. And when the S120PII was being discontinued, I bought a spare one for an incredible $299. I've never had to use it.

But this thread was really about JBL, not where I would buy product. Inevitably, just like with the business of selling CD's & DVD's, the public has moved away from local stores towards buying from mail-order & internet dealers. Price & selection are the reasons. There's nothing inherently wrong about internet & mail-order dealers.

In the above post, I meant to say, "In 2003, I didn't have a computer"

 

[Loren42]

In the above post, I meant to say, "In 2003, I didn't have a computer"

That's worse!

 

[PhilCohen]

That's worse!

Actually, in 1996,I blew $3000 on a computer system based on a Sony VAIO PC, but it was a lemon that repeatedly froze up when I went online. After six repairmen were unable to get it working, I gave up on computers until 2007, when I bought an iMAC, which I'm delighted with. For a few years before buying the iMAC, I did websurfing with a WEBTV box.

 

[tonmeister]

I don't know if it's the economy or what, but if you look at the website for JBL, their consumer loudspeaker line (for the U.S.A.) has not only not been expanding(several loudspeaker series that they introduced in recent years ended up being marketed only outside the U.S.A.), but the product line is actually SHRINKING. "Studio L" is now their top of the line product.
Combined with the news that they're closing some manufacturing facilities in favor of using other Harmon International factories, it makes you wonder if JBL will be around for much longer.

Hi Phil,

I can assure you that JBL is not going away any time soon. Among Harman's brands, it's the oldest, stalwart crown jewel, and it generates the most income among our consumer, professional and automotive branded audio systems. As a business, Harman is quite healthy these days: its share price increased almost 175% over the past 12 months, and there are aggressive plans in place to grow the business even further.

While the economic recession and reorganization of the company may have slowed down the release of new consumer products over the past 2 years, I would expect that to change in the next 12 months.

Someone already pointed out that, with the exception of subwoofers, consumer loudspeakers with 12+ inch woofers are not popular sellers due to the large footprint/baffle they require. So, not many manufacturers are making them anymore. Even the Revel Salons and Studios don't use such large drivers but rather use an array of smaller drivers to give the equivalent or higher SPL but without the need for a larger, wider baffle.

The use of multiple subwoofers placed in corners or at mid-points of the room to cancel odd-order room modes, offer compelling benefits over using full-range main channels w/o bass management. Subwoofers also make mains channel speaker placement easier, reduce the seat-to-seat variance in response below 100 Hz, and make the bass more consistent from channel to channel. Purchasing four subwoofers and calibrating them would be the single largest improvement you could make to your existing setup. Our research has shown that bass quality accounts for about 30% of a listener's overall loudspeaker preference rating, so it's something you cannot ignore.

If you really want a JBL floor-standingspeaker with a 12-inch+ woofer you're going to have to step up in price to the JBL Synthesis lineup that includes Everest, K-series and Project Array.

If woofer size really matters to you (and it shouldn't, given the alternative solutions I've suggested) then you are going to have a rather large wallet to acquire it -

 

[DD66000]

As to the Studio L series now being the top consumer line, that's not counting the Everest, K2 series and Array, all very high priced by comparison.
But there was the Performance Series, which I have, and are a better system than the Studio L.
But they were difficult to find as they were mainly available through Synthesis dealers (read no showrooms). There were a few stores that had them (Tweeters, Neb. furniture Mart, I think it was). Can now be found on Harman's online factory store, from time to time.

 

[PENG]

Hi Phil,

The use of multiple subwoofers placed in corners or at mid-points of the room to cancel odd-order room modes, offer compelling benefits over using full-range main channels w/o bass management.

I understand the theory but in practice it is time consuming and require a lot of patience besides knowledge. After adding two subs to my surround channels I am actually worse off in bass. Being too busy trying to make a living I have to wait until I can book a week vacation to sort the bass of my 3 subs and the floor standers out. Until then it seems to me I am better off turning the added subs off. Good thing I can only afford 3, if I remember correctly some forum member (e.g.Mike C?) have much more than that and I always wonder how did they find time to make them work together properly.

 

[DD66000]

I understand the theory but in practice it is time consuming and require a lot of patience besides knowledge. After adding two subs to my surround channels I am actually worse off in bass. Being too busy trying to make a living I have to wait until I can book a week vacation to sort the bass of my 3 subs and the floor standers out. Until then it seems to me I am better off turning the added subs off. Good thing I can only afford 3, if I remember correctly some forum member (e.g.Mike C?) have much more than that and I always wonder how did they find time to make them work together properly.

Its a matter of placing one sub at the main seat, run pink noise through it, while crawling around the floor with a SPL meter and taking note at which locations give the highest reading. Those are the locations the subs should go.
I find that symmetrically placed (to the centerline f/b is usually best).