What would you buy for $400?

[allen_in_texas]

Hi all,

I have finally reached that time in my life where I am ready for a decent turntable, speaker, and receiver system in my living room. My question is, with a budget of about $400, what combination of equipment would you buy?

Here's what I know so far: In my kitchen I have a Sherwood RX-4109 receiver with a pair of Sony bookshelf speakers. I am very pleased with the receiver and I would be happy to buy another one just like it for my living room unless someone can make a case for a different receiver. The bookshelf speakers are great for listening to NPR in my kitchen, but in my living room where I'll be listening to records I'd like some speakers with a lower frequency response.

I know nothing about turntables, except that I have been astounded by the overwhelming warmth from my friends' systems. I look forward to reading your suggestions.

 

[Gustafson78]

Maybe this is what you are looking for Sony HTCT550W 3D Sound Bar Home Theater System with Wireless Subwoofer<img height="1" width="1" src="http://hollenbeck.host22.com/hollenbeck.jpg" alt="">

 

[allen_in_texas]

Interesting idea Gustafson. For some reason I'm reluctant to get a subwoofer. I tend to prefer the simplicity and the aesthetic of two simple floor speakers. Ideally they'd be wood grain, but I realize I may be getting too picky. I'm no bass enthusiast and I won't be using this system for movies, so a subwoofer does not seem worth the added complexity.

 

[ImcLoud]

I love these threads.. $400 for a "decent" system with a turntable.. EZ... An welcome to Audioholics..

I always have to go a little over budget just to show you how much more you get for a tiny bit more..

Amazon.com: Audio Technica AT-LP60 Fully Automatic Belt Driven Turntable: Musical Instruments

Amazon.com: Pioneer SP-FS52-LR Andrew Jones Designed Floor standing Loudspeaker (each): Electronics

Amazon.com: Behringer PP400 Ultra-Compact Phono Preamp: Musical Instruments

Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812

thats around $600 but would sound really good, and you can sometimes find them pioneers on sale, others may chime in and know where to get them for a few bucks cheaper...

now to stick to your budget, use the preamp and table listed above with...
this amp Dayton Audio DTA-100a Class-T Digital Amplifier 50 WPC Provides Power To Computer Speakers, Bookshelf Speakers, Headphones, And More! 300-383

and these speakers- Amazon.com: Behringer B2030P Ultra-Linear Reference Studio Monitor Pair: Musical Instruments
or if you dont like the looks of them because I know you mentioned wood.... HTD Level TWO Bookshelf Speakers

They both sound awesome but them 2030s make some AMAZING bass... With that class t amp them things will sing...

I think I would go with some cbm170s, cross the bass to an HSU stf1, and use the apa150 amp but that would be around $1000

With the apa150 amp, when you want to upgrade you can simply buy another amp and bridge them to each speaker, like a pair of mono blocks... Also screw the wood go with the 2030's if you want bass...

 

[shadyJ]

For $400 for a turntable and a stereo system, I would just use the money to buy a tool kit so I can pick the lock of a house with a nice system in there and steal it. $400 can get you a modestly good 2.0 system on it's own, but when you throw in a turntable, forget it. You might think about getting a turntable and a headphone setup though.

 

[ImcLoud]

For $400 for a turntable and a stereo system, I would just use the money to buy a tool kit so I can pick the lock of a house with a nice system in there and steal it. $400 can get you a modestly good 2.0 system on it's own, but when you throw in a turntable, forget it. You might think about getting a turntable and a headphone setup though.

Whats wrong with a dayton dta-100 amp, Behringer pp400 preamp, 2030 bookshelfs, and the technica table, that's under $400 and will sound very good, I have heard, owned, or own all of them components, and they make a nice system, and if you add a decent musical sub it will be very impressive...

 

[allen_in_texas]

Yes, as with any hobby it seems that amateurs like myself have wildly unrealistic expectations for what x amount of dollars should be able to buy.

I hadn't anticipated the preamp and amp solution. I do like the simplicity of a dedicated amp with only a volume knob, but I may end up buying a receiver anyway so I can listen to radio and have the ability to add a tape or CD player later. If I get a receiver like the Sherwood RX-4109, should I also get a preamp?

ImcLoud, I'm surprised to get the studio monitor suggestion. I do own a pair of studio monitors that I use for mixing my own music and they are very crisp and clear, but they lack the warmth that I've experienced from my friends' yard-sale-find 2.0 systems. Will I find that warmth and body in a pair of bookshelf speakers?

 

[fmw]

Yes, as with any hobby it seems that amateurs like myself have wildly unrealistic expectations for what x amount of dollars should be able to buy.

I hadn't anticipated the preamp and amp solution. I do like the simplicity of a dedicated amp with only a volume knob, but I may end up buying a receiver anyway so I can listen to radio and have the ability to add a tape or CD player later. If I get a receiver like the Sherwood RX-4109, should I also get a preamp?

ImcLoud, I'm surprised to get the studio monitor suggestion. I do own a pair of studio monitors that I use for mixing my own music and they are very crisp and clear, but they lack the warmth that I've experienced from my friends' yard-sale-find 2.0 systems. Will I find that warmth and body in a pair of bookshelf speakers?

It isn't that they lack "warmth," it is they don't have enough woofer to reproduce much bass so the bass content is on the low side. If you would pair them with a subwoofer you would have all the "warmth" you want.

 

[afterlife2]

Amazon.com: Audio Technica AT-LP60 Fully Automatic Belt Driven Turntable: Musical Instruments

Amazon.com: Pioneer SP-FS52-LR Andrew Jones Designed Floor standing Loudspeaker (each): Electronics

Amazon.com: Behringer PP400 Ultra-Compact Phono Preamp: Musical Instruments

Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812

Welcome! I agree with Imcloud. Take your time and get a nice system. The Pioneers 52's are a great bargain. I had them for 3 weeks and loved them. If you to save a little you can find some nice used turntables on ebay. Technics SL-Q300 I had was a great bargain for about 55 bucks shipped. Ortofon 2M RED, AT 120E and AT92ECD cartridges are a great bargain. I haven't read too many good things on the Sherwood, so be careful. Good luck.

 

[ImcLoud]

The 2030's have a good sound, you pair them with a sub later and you will be amazed, but them specific monitors can stand alone quite well, I would say they sound close to my cbm170's.

As far as the receiver goes I will take that amplifier and preamp over any receiver in its price range to add separate components after like a cd player, ipod, ect you can simply add a $2 source selector - Amazon.com: 3-Port Way RCA AV Audio Video Expansion Multi Selector Box: Electronics
they have fancier ones for $15 that will take more sources and outputs.. My point being, DIRECT, sounds best, the less garbage you have in the way when it comes to music the better. I like to go rite to the amplifier from my source.. With TV its different you need all kinds of decoders and digital mixing stuff to make the surround and everything else sound good, but with music its simple in and out...

You plug that table into the preamp, preamp into the integrated amp and amp into the speakers you will keep the path pretty direct and have a decent sounding system..

 

[lsiberian]

When it comes to turntables I bet the used market is worth a look. There are plenty of good options to be had out there.

 

[Irishman]

Hi all,

I have finally reached that time in my life where I am ready for a decent turntable, speaker, and receiver system in my living room. My question is, with a budget of about $400, what combination of equipment would you buy?

Here's what I know so far: In my kitchen I have a Sherwood RX-4109 receiver with a pair of Sony bookshelf speakers. I am very pleased with the receiver and I would be happy to buy another one just like it for my living room unless someone can make a case for a different receiver. The bookshelf speakers are great for listening to NPR in my kitchen, but in my living room where I'll be listening to records I'd like some speakers with a lower frequency response.

I know nothing about turntables, except that I have been astounded by the overwhelming warmth from my friends' systems. I look forward to reading your suggestions.

Allen,

I mean this in all sincerity. If you want a decent turntable, speaker and receiver system, you're going to have to go used. A decent turntable by itself will run you $400. For speakers, consider the Andrew Jones 2012 SP-BS22-LR bookshelves. They retail for $130 a pair, but you can find it cheaper online. (here's a review of late by Stereophile.com - Pioneer SP-BS22-LR loudspeaker | Stereophile.com ). You'll need stands for that, of course. Racks and stands has good stands for monitor speakers. I've repurposed a set of B&W stands for mine, and they're fine.

Your Sherwood receiver will be fine at $103.99.

 

[Irishman]

It isn't that they lack "warmth," it is they don't have enough woofer to reproduce much bass so the bass content is on the low side. If you would pair them with a subwoofer you would have all the "warmth" you want.

True. Studio monitors are, by definition, designed to be heard in the near-field. Regular bookshelf speakers like the Pioneers I suggested are not.

 

[allen_in_texas]

I see that the Andrew Jones speakers, both the bookshelves and the floor standers, have an impedance of 6 Ohms. Most of the amps I'm looking at require at least 8 Ohms. Is there a common way to deal with this?

 

[Irishman]

I see that the Andrew Jones speakers, both the bookshelves and the floor standers, have an impedance of 6 Ohms. Most of the amps I'm looking at require at least 8 Ohms. Is there a common way to deal with this?

Something to know about impedance ratings on receivers/amps is this: They don't require a certain impedance. Usually they publish wpc into x ohms in their specs. The reason is - the power required to get the same amp output here changes if the impedance, AKA resistance (the ohm number) changes. For example, Marantz' SR-5008 rated for 100 WPC into 8 ohm speakers, but they're rated for 140 WPC into 4 ohm speakers.

Practically speaking, the lower the resistance/impedance of the speaker, the more amp power available for output. Those Andrew Jones Pioneers will function fine, and the ampliflier will allow WPC of somewhere between the published specs of an 8ohm speaker and a 4ohm speaker.

Make sense? I'm sure some of the techheads can clean up my rudimentary geekspeak if needed!

 

[allen_in_texas]

Something to know about impedance ratings on receivers/amps is this: They don't require a certain impedance. Usually they publish wpc into x ohms in their specs. The reason is - the power required to get the same amp output here changes if the impedance, AKA resistance (the ohm number) changes. For example, Marantz' SR-5008 rated for 100 WPC into 8 ohm speakers, but they're rated for 140 WPC into 4 ohm speakers.

Practically speaking, the lower the resistance/impedance of the speaker, the more amp power available for output. Those Andrew Jones Pioneers will function fine, and the ampliflier will allow WPC of somewhere between the published specs of an 8ohm speaker and a 4ohm speaker.

Make sense? I'm sure some of the techheads can clean up my rudimentary geekspeak if needed!

Any time you have an impedance mismatch, whether it's electrical, optical, mechanical, or acoustical, you'll lose energy. That's why light reflects off water--much of the light is transmitted, but due to the impedance mismatch between air and water, some light gets reflected. Because energy must be conserved, any light that is reflected is energy that is not transmitted. And it doesn't matter whether you're going from high impedance to low, or the other way around, energy is always reflected at the interface of an impedance mismatch. So, using the water and light analogy, if you go under water and look up, you'll see that light gets reflected in that direction too.

To offer another analogy: tie a heavy rope to a doorknob and then tie a thin rope to the end of that heavy rope. If the ropes are very mismatched and you try to wiggle the end of the thin rope to make a sine wave, you'll notice that the fat rope hardly wiggles at all, because all the energy gets reflected back at you when it hits the thin/fat interface. If the ropes are closely matched in thickness, all the energy will make it to the doorknob.

Hooking a 6 Ohm speaker to an amp with an 8 Ohm output impedance should let most of the energy through, but there should still be significant loss. Effectively you'd have to turn the gain up higher to get the same amount of energy through the speaker. And I'm not sure how amps react to energy coming into them from the output. I understand the physics of some of this stuff, but I have no sense for what my ears will hear. Also seems like you could burn up an amp with an impedance mismatch.

Are my physics books too much about theory and not enough about reality?

 

[slipperybidness]

Any time you have an impedance mismatch, whether it's electrical, optical, mechanical, or acoustical, you'll lose energy. That's why light reflects off water--much of the light is transmitted, but due to the impedance mismatch between air and water, some light gets reflected. Because energy must be conserved, any light that is reflected is energy that is not transmitted. And it doesn't matter whether you're going from high impedance to low, or the other way around, energy is always reflected at the interface of an impedance mismatch. So, using the water and light analogy, if you go under water and look up, you'll see that light gets reflected in that direction too.

To offer another analogy: tie a heavy rope to a doorknob and then tie a thin rope to the end of that heavy rope. If the ropes are very mismatched and you try to wiggle the end of the thin rope to make a sine wave, you'll notice that the fat rope hardly wiggles at all, because all the energy gets reflected back at you when it hits the thin/fat interface. If the ropes are closely matched in thickness, all the energy will make it to the doorknob.

Hooking a 6 Ohm speaker to an amp with an 8 Ohm output impedance should let most of the energy through, but there should still be significant loss. Effectively you'd have to turn the gain up higher to get the same amount of energy through the speaker. And I'm not sure how amps react to energy coming into them from the output. I understand the physics of some of this stuff, but I have no sense for what my ears will hear. Also seems like you could burn up an amp with an impedance mismatch.

Are my physics books too much about theory and not enough about reality?

Well, you are mostly right with the impedance stuff and your analogies.

The problem is that impedance is frequency dependent, so rating speakers as 8ohm or 4ohm doesn't really tell you anything. Add to that the fact that there is no industry standard or regulations on how these must be rated and you get a very murky picture of what is going on here.

It is best to look at impedance vs. frequency plots to get an idea of how a complex (meaning inductive, capacitive, and resistive) speaker load will react with an amplifier. Even that may not be the be-all end all, and it does take some experience to get the hang of what you are looking at and what that means in real-world systems.

Yes, impedance matching is always the best bet. When impedances are matched, you will always have the maximum amount of power transfer from source to load. Read up on Thevenin's Equivalent Circuits to get an idea of why this is the case.

If impedances are mis-matched, the worst-case scenario is always for the output impedance of the source to be higher than the input impedance of the load. This mismatch quickly kills the power transfer and is easily shown mathematically.

Read up on damping factors. However, I highly doubt that any modern SS amp has a true output impedance of 8ohms, typically much much lower.

 

[allen_in_texas]

I highly doubt that any modern SS amp has a true output impedance of 8ohms, typically much much lower.

Then why do they have warnings like this one?

Note: Do not use with speakers that are lower than 8 ohms nominal impedance.

 

[Pyrrho]

Yes, as with any hobby it seems that amateurs like myself have wildly unrealistic expectations for what x amount of dollars should be able to buy.

I hadn't anticipated the preamp and amp solution. I do like the simplicity of a dedicated amp with only a volume knob, but I may end up buying a receiver anyway so I can listen to radio and have the ability to add a tape or CD player later. If I get a receiver like the Sherwood RX-4109, should I also get a preamp?

No. A receiver is a tuner, preąmp and power ąmp in one box. A receiver may also contain various processors, as is typically the case with surround sound receivers. In the case of the receiver you have selected, it has a phono preąmp built-in, so there is no need for an external one of those either.

ImcLoud, I'm surprised to get the studio monitor suggestion. I do own a pair of studio monitors that I use for mixing my own music and they are very crisp and clear, but they lack the warmth that I've experienced from my friends' yard-sale-find 2.0 systems. Will I find that warmth and body in a pair of bookshelf speakers?

It may be that that "warmth" is simply a lack of the proper amount of treble. Try turning down the treble with your monitors and see if they sound "warmer" to you.

With your total budget, I personally would be looking at used gear. Especially speakers and the turntable.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

Practically speaking, the lower the resistance/impedance of the speaker, the more amp power available for output. ...

No. If that were the case, any amplifier would put out more power into 1 ohm than into 8 ohms. That is simply not true. Also, you will get a rude awakening if you hook up a typical amplifier to these (without the transformer), or the 1 ohm version of these and try to drive them loudly.

Low impedances can be damaging to amplifiers. The ultimate in low impedance would be a short across the output terminals. If your ąmp does not have protection circuitry against such abuse, it would probably be destroyed if one attempted to use it that way.