What Voodoo is this - Dayton Audio SUB1200? (also DIY question)

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
It has been years since I auditioned the SUB1200, but the thing that really blew my mind was how it handled the "Live. Die. Repeat" intro.

What I am talking about is how well it attempted to play the signal! If I had not heard a better sub play that sound, I would have never known that the SUB1200 was not doing exactly what it should with the signal.
Another way to say that is there was no port noise, no bottoming out of the driver, and no clipping of the amp ... or any other indication that the sub was stressing itself to play this content.
...Or you could say it was not stressing itself, because it wasn't really attempting to play the full blown content! It somehow parsed out some combination of overtones/harmonics that it was capable of and played that cleanly!

For further comment on this, Jman made the following statements in his review (linked after qoute):
Since the SUB-1200 seemed virtually impervious to deleterious behavior I decided to push it with some of the most demanding blu-rays in my collection. To my utter surprise it held its head high and said "no, I will not falter". Most of the really torturous movies I watched weren't quite as fulfilling as they've been with some other subwoofers in the past, but this 'cheapie' never put a foot wrong. In retrospect I probably should have chosen different test material; gut-wrenching bass is not this subwoofers forte, yet I treated it as though it was. To a certain extent it almost became a quest to see if I could make the SUB-1200 lose composure, but I was ultimately never able to do that. It's almost bullet proof in that regard, and I tip my hat to Dayton Audio because of it.

I assume that the amp must have some sort of limiter to prevent the sub from shitting all over itself when content like this is presented.

Aside from giving a redundant (but deserved) kudos to DA for this sub, my real question is "How did they do that?"

If I understand correctly, clipping is likely to damage the driver even at low frequencies, so it is not simply a matter of finding an amp that does not have too much power (I would also expect an amp maxed out would need some recuperation time after being pushed to its limit, so there would be some type of audible drop-out effect).

So what did they do? Is there a DSP module that applies some type of limiter/filter?

Is there a way to replicate this in a DIY sub?
I have generally thought that were I to do a DIY sub, I would be certain to use a very robust driver and design such that in the end my ears are the weakest link in the chain - IOW there is enough over-kill such that I would never push its limits!

But if the budget did not allow for a robust sub, is there a way for a person with normally available hardware to have this type of casual performance through "destructive" content? Would a miniDSP do it? If so, is it reasonable to expect to set it up correctly without having to damage your driver to find the limits (something DA could reasonably do during design while most of us would not)?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The Sub-12000 would have just used a simple high-pass filter to protect itself. No need for anything fancy, and it definitely does not have digital processing onboard. And yes, you can use a MiniDSP to set similar high-pass filters for any speaker.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Seem like a worthy competitor to the JBL 550p I have. Probably better.
 
afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
It has been years since I auditioned the SUB1200, but the thing that really blew my mind was how it handled the "Live. Die. Repeat" intro.

What I am talking about is how well it attempted to play the signal! If I had not heard a better sub play that sound, I would have never known that the SUB1200 was not doing exactly what it should with the signal.
Another way to say that is there was no port noise, no bottoming out of the driver, and no clipping of the amp ... or any other indication that the sub was stressing itself to play this content.
...Or you could say it was not stressing itself, because it wasn't really attempting to play the full blown content! It somehow parsed out some combination of overtones/harmonics that it was capable of and played that cleanly!

For further comment on this, Jman made the following statements in his review (linked after qoute):


I assume that the amp must have some sort of limiter to prevent the sub from shitting all over itself when content like this is presented.

Aside from giving a redundant (but deserved) kudos to DA for this sub, my real question is "How did they do that?"

If I understand correctly, clipping is likely to damage the driver even at low frequencies, so it is not simply a matter of finding an amp that does not have too much power (I would also expect an amp maxed out would need some recuperation time after being pushed to its limit, so there would be some type of audible drop-out effect).

So what did they do? Is there a DSP module that applies some type of limiter/filter?

Is there a way to replicate this in a DIY sub?
I have generally thought that were I to do a DIY sub, I would be certain to use a very robust driver and design such that in the end my ears are the weakest link in the chain - IOW there is enough over-kill such that I would never push its limits!

But if the budget did not allow for a robust sub, is there a way for a person with normally available hardware to have this type of casual performance through "destructive" content? Would a miniDSP do it? If so, is it reasonable to expect to set it up correctly without having to damage your driver to find the limits (something DA could reasonably do during design while most of us would not)?
39269CA6-6708-4DBE-B81A-2EB209719C94.jpeg
 
afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
The Sub-12000 would have just used a simple high-pass filter to protect itself. No need for anything fancy, and it definitely does not have digital processing onboard. And yes, you can use a MiniDSP to set similar high-pass filters for any speaker.
These actually do not have a high pass filter on the speaker outputs. Only the woofer has a filter of any kind. From PE website.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Seem like a worthy competitor to the JBL 550p I have. Probably better.
The JBL is a smaller box that weighs more, so I might suspect the components are better (or maybe the cabinet has thicker walls. On second thought, you posted a photo of the 550p driver and it was pretty impressive! The SUB1200 driver is not as impressive, but it is possible that a lessor 12" driver in an appropriately tuned ported design could perform better.
However, I would be inclined to believe the 550p is likely better for music because of a higher quality driver and I do think JBL has the design chops to make a good woofer!
The SUB1200 is not designed for low, deep bass (which is what makes it so good in my book - if the budget is $150 selling price, I don't think you can attempt deep low bass without ending up with a poop product).

JBL 550p:



I am pretty sure I saw a pic of the SUB1200 driver (maybe Jman had posted - his photos are no longer up) and the magnet and frame were not at the same level as the JBL
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The Sub-12000 would have just used a simple high-pass filter to protect itself. No need for anything fancy, and it definitely does not have digital processing onboard. And yes, you can use a MiniDSP to set similar high-pass filters for any speaker.
Okay, DOH! I knew any ported sub needs a high-pass to prevent destroying the driver (they do not do well with frequencies below the port tune) and seems like I read the SUB-1200 is tuned around 32 or 34 Hz. They specify 25Hz for FR, but no tolerance.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
The JBL is a smaller box that weighs more, so I might suspect the components are better (or maybe the cabinet has thicker walls. On second thought, you posted a photo of the 550p driver and it was pretty impressive! The SUB1200 driver is not as impressive, but it is possible that a lessor 12" driver in an appropriately tuned ported design could perform better.
However, I would be inclined to believe the 550p is likely better for music because of a higher quality driver and I do think JBL has the design chops to make a good woofer!
The SUB1200 is not designed for low, deep bass (which is what makes it so good in my book - if the budget is $150 selling price, I don't think you can attempt deep low bass without ending up with a poop product).

JBL 550p:



I am pretty sure I saw a pic of the SUB1200 driver (maybe Jman had posted - his photos are no longer up) and the magnet and frame were not at the same level as the JBL
I'll have to measure what DB level I'm at when the driver starts to vibrate internally. Then I'll be able to say what it's "normal" listening levels are. I think I'm asking it to do too much, but 90% of the time it sounds excellent. It's just those times I'm asking it to do 30hz and below at "loud" listening levels that things get noticeable. Normal music listening doesn't affect it at all until loud/deep bass appears.

EDIT: Just did it and at the MLP at 30hz test tone it vibrates at ~83db output.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'll have to measure what DB level I'm at when the driver starts to vibrate internally. Then I'll be able to say what it's "normal" listening levels are. I think I'm asking it to do too much, but 90% of the time it sounds excellent. It's just those times I'm asking it to do 30hz and below at "loud" listening levels that things get noticeable. Normal music listening doesn't affect it at all until loud/deep bass appears.

EDIT: Just did it and at the MLP at 30hz test tone it vibrates at ~83db output.
Oh, I was thinking this was a new problem! So what you are saying is you recently demanded more from your subs which revealed a weakness that was likely always there?
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Oh, I was thinking this was a new problem! So what you are saying is you recently demanded more from your subs which revealed a weakness that was likely always there?
I'm thinking so, but it's hard to tell since I really only listened to music in my office. We just started watching more TV in my office so it became more noticeable.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm thinking so, but it's hard to tell since I really only listened to music in my office. We just started watching more TV in my office so it became more noticeable.
30Hz at 83dB frpm 8'(?) away seems like it would be pretty reasonable use in a HT scenario!

I realize it was during "the honeymoon", but wanted to remind you of your own statements to, perhaps, remind you of your initial trials:
Ok. I put the little guy though the WOW (war of the worlds) gauntlet and it did very well. I went through the lightning scene and felt the strikes just as I should with a sub like this in my 12'x12' room. The really deep stuff was somewhat missing, but that is to be expected with the F3 of 27hz.

On to the church scene. Well, this really showed how good this little sub really is. Again, the really deep stuff was missing, but this well designed sub got to the brink of over-excursion but never crossed the line. JBL did a great job (as expected) with matching the driver to the box and amp power. There really isn't room for improvement when it comes to how deep this thing can go and how much it costs.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
30Hz at 83dB frpm 8'(?) away seems like it would be pretty reasonable use in a HT scenario!

I realize it was during "the honeymoon", but wanted to remind you of your own statements to, perhaps, remind you of your initial trials:

Well then I'll just have to do that test again won't I? :)

EDIT: Well, I did the same test, same WoW scene, and it still sounds fantastic. I listened for the vibration, but with everything else going on in the scene, you can't hear it.

I'd still recommend this thing without hesitation, but people need to be aware of it's limitations.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Well then I'll just have to do that test again won't I? :)

EDIT: Well, I did the same test, same WoW scene, and it still sounds fantastic. I listened for the vibration, but with everything else going on in the scene, you can't hear it.

I'd still recommend this thing without hesitation, but people need to be aware of it's limitations.
Hey!
I was just checking out @ErinH 's site and reading about the Rythmik F12G subwoofer and he mentioned this:

One thing that is a nice added touch is the felt material on the underside of the cone (shown in the pictures above). This is to minimize any audible tinsel lead slap on the cone. And I can say without a doubt, as I was testing this woofer to very high excursion levels (likely higher than anyone would actually achieve in real use), I never once heard any mechanical noise from the woofer driver.

It seems like you had the driver out and checked it pretty thoroughly (while operating?), but you might want to check to see if this was the problem if you didn't look for it before.
 
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