What speaker characteristics reproduce horns well.

[ssn vet]

I was listening to Chicago the other day at "spirited" volumes and noticed a few things about my speakers.

The bass really stood out and sounded great. The same for the symbols and drums. The vocals sounded good... but one thing was missing...

The horns just weren't jumping out at me.

I saw Chicago three years ago and it was a really great concert. And the horns were powerful and drove the music just as intensely as the guitars and bass.

I've been listening to some upbeat jazz lately as well and am wondering what type of speakers (horns, silk domes, aluminum domes, etc...) are most commonly associated with good horn reproduction.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was listening to Chicago the other day at "spirited" volumes and noticed a few things about my speakers.

The bass really stood out and sounded great. The same for the symbols and drums. The vocals sounded good... but one thing was missing...

The horns just weren't jumping out at me.

I saw Chicago three years ago and it was a really great concert. And the horns were powerful and drove the music just as intensely as the guitars and bass.

I've been listening to some upbeat jazz lately as well and am wondering what type of speakers (horns, silk domes, aluminum domes, etc...) are most commonly associated with good horn reproduction.

What it takes is good speakers. The design is not critical to a point.
It takes speakers with a good power band from 800 Hz to 15 KHz at least. Massed brass is also the very devil for showing up crossover problems. A lot of that power is right across the crossover region.

When I said up to a point, I know one line of speakers that reproduces what you are lacking exceptionally well. It is the Lowther speakers back horn loaded and using single very high efficiency full range drivers. I think that is one of the reasons many are so attracted to those speakers.

 

[highfigh]

A speaker that has a noticeable lack of energy in the mid-range will never sound accurate, especially with drums and horns. When I worked at a stereo shop in the late-'70s to late-'80s, a friend played some music through a speaker made by Micro-Acoustics. They had a 10" woofer and a stamped steel frame with five 2" paper cone tweeters. His first reaction was "Where's the midrange?". I'm sure they sounded good with some music, but we couldn't find any. The odd thing- that company made some very nice sounding phono cartridges.

If you get a chance to listen to those speakers, pass.

My ears like textile dome tweeters, but I have heard a few Titanium domes that weren't terribly harsh. That was in the mid-'90s though, and that company is no longer making speakers of that caliber.

 

[lovinthehd]

What Chicago recording were you listening to?

 

[ssn vet]

Very Best of Chicago... all their classic hits.

Hard base driven songs like 25 or 6 to 4 and I'm a Man...

To the trumpet driven Walking Through the Park One Day.

My set up sounds like a recording of a trumpet... not like there's a trumpet in the room

 

[lovinthehd]

Which speakers are they?

 

[shadyJ]

How do you know that the problem in not the recording itself? A lot of dynamics get squashed in the recording process. Brass does not usually sound as lively recorded as it does live. In reality many brass instruments are harsh, I find. A recording or system that makes them sound mellow isn't reproducing them correctly.

 

[lovinthehd]

Listened to a couple Chicago recordings I have (altho not the one ssn vet has), the horns aren't always treated the same, altho I generally found them acceptable. Comparing a recording of the old band to a recent concert isn't much of an apples to apples thing either.

 

[ssn vet]

Speakers are B&W DM-310s...

Recording was a digitally re-mastered best of CD dated 2006. I had this cranked up to nearly max volume on my little 70 Watt Yammi amp. This is hardly an audiophile quality amp, but I have been impressed with how clean it sounds. Zero hiss. No detectable distortion if I keep it below the 0 dB ( I had it cranked to -10 dB)

I'm wondering if my taste might tend towards a brighter speaker, but these B&Ws really deliver the base and driving guitars and crisp symbols.
I have a sub on order, but wonder if a center speaker wouldn't have been a higher priority.

 

[yepimonfire]

Accurate speakers should reproduce anything well, as they won’t add or subtract anything from the sound. In addition, you need adequate midrange power to properly reproduce dynamics without distortion. Too many people are caught up worrying about the bass being the most demanding frequency range, when in reality (especially with ported speakers, which tend to be very efficient near the tuning frequency) it’s the band from ~100hz-2khz (depending on the xover point) that is the most power hungry and demanding portion of the response.

Typical two way speakers crossed over at 2.5khz or higher are at a serious disadvantage because the woofer is required to cover almost 6 octaves simultaneously, leading to IM distortion in the upper mids. The solution to this is a three way speaker, or two way with a lower xover used in conjunction with a sub. 3 octaves per driver is ideal, 4 octaves is practical and good enough for most. With ported speakers, there is little cone movement around the octave of the tuning frequency, and so it’s unlikely to have an effect on upper frequency distortion. An example of this would be a ported speaker tuned at 60hz with a crossover of 1.5khz and a sub crossover of ~60hz. From about 50-80hz, the port will significantly limit driver excursion, so the driver is mostly working harder from 80hz-1.5khz. That’s about 4 octaves on both the woofer and the tweeter. Most tweeters cannot handle a low xover without significant distortion without being coupled to a horn, which is why a three way design makes more sense for most speakers.

B&W speakers are intentionally voiced to be inaccurate. Many of their speakers measure with a mid bass hump and a recessed midrange/lower treble. I would look into other brands.

 

[ssn vet]

Thanks for the detailed reply....

Replacing everything is not on the cards (i.e. piggy bank) for the foreseeable future... so I'm going to have to try to augment the B&Ws with a center speaker.

I'll look towards a center that is not ported and has a crossover point that leaves the bass to the front drivers and sub and emphasizes the mids.

Any recommendations?

I've been eyeing this sale....

http://rbhsound.com/bfs-sx661c.php

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the detailed reply....

Replacing everything is not on the cards (i.e. piggy bank) for the foreseeable future... so I'm going to have to try to augment the B&Ws with a center speaker.

I'll look towards a center that is not ported and has a crossover point that leaves the bass to the front drivers and sub and emphasizes the mids.

Any recommendations?

I've been eyeing this sale....

http://rbhsound.com/bfs-sx661c.php

Buying a center speaker that is significantly different in sound signature from your left and right speakers, will be a massive mistake and waste of money. You will have a very unbalanced sound stage.

 

[lovinthehd]

Speakers are B&W DM-310s...

Recording was a digitally re-mastered best of CD dated 2006. I had this cranked up to nearly max volume on my little 70 Watt Yammi amp. This is hardly an audiophile quality amp, but I have been impressed with how clean it sounds. Zero hiss. No detectable distortion if I keep it below the 0 dB ( I had it cranked to -10 dB)

I'm wondering if my taste might tend towards a brighter speaker, but these B&Ws really deliver the base and driving guitars and crisp symbols.
I have a sub on order, but wonder if a center speaker wouldn't have been a higher priority.

Before you go buying speakers to make one cd sound different....is your speaker issue present for a variety of recordings you have?

 

[MrBoat]

Many, if not most "remastered" recordings are shells of the recordings they once were. More often than not, it makes me question the age of those who do the remastering, relative to the age of the album.

 

[Bucknekked]

Many, if not most "remastered" recordings are shells of the recordings they once were. More often than not, it makes me question the age of those who do the remastering, relative to the age of the album.

Speakers are B&W DM-310s...
I have a sub on order, but wonder if a center speaker wouldn't have been a higher priority.

ssn vet

I'm going to go with MrBoat's first thought here and recommend a purchasing time out while you evaluate your real need. I can vouch for the vast differences in source material. Even with the same band, like Chicago, there will be large audible differences between CD titles. I would recommend a sit down listening session (free) with a range of titles and see if you hear a problem you can identify, or, are we chasing windmills here.

Secondarily, and probably just as important, is the variability within our own musical experience. There are days and times when our best sounding stuff sounds "off". That's not the hardware doing that, often times its our own internal soundsystem : brain + 2 ears. This variability can't be overstated. I know when I sit down and stuff just sounds off, the problem isn't my hardware. Its me. It happens and the only fix is either another frosty cold beverage, or, shut it off and try again later when the mood is better.

The good news is that you are running hardware (the B&W 310s and a 70watt avr) that's not terribly expensive but pretty good. If you like the way it sounds, great. Keep it up. If you come in to the idea you'd like to upgrade, you are in a spot in the spectrum of speakers and AVR's where you can get a great upgrade without breaking the bank. In other words, from where you are, an upgrade should be pretty easy when you have the coin assembled.

I am a huge proponent of saving enough money to KNOW you are buying an upgrade instead of trying to spend as little as possible and HOPING you are getting an upgrade. Saving takes time, but it pays off because it gives you time to audition, research and get your hopes up.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 

[MrBoat]

I listen to jazz like Tom Scott & The L.A. Express, Euge Groove, Candy Dulfer, Spro Gyra, etc. if I want to rate my speakers against horns. These folks almost always record well and will have current work immune to remasters. Use that as a benchmark before mainstream. Maceo Parker is another good one, although, there is some mixed quality with him as well. Boney James is a good gauge too.

This is another good case for graphic EQ.

 

[KEW]

You've received excellent advice here!

I agree with everything said, but would suggest a couple of things for you to consider as you listen:

1) I have found that speakers with more pronounced waveguides or horns tend to do better with Brass instruments.

This is not rocket science or anything profound, it just reflects the dispersion characteristic. Having had Bose 901's for a brief while (and I still have Mirage OMD-5 omnidirectional speakers) I can tell you that these speakers seem to do better reproducing instruments that are not directional (such as violins and pianos) while speakers that are directional do better with trumpets and trombones (Chicago). Saxophones and other woodwinds are somewhere in between because even though they have a bell, most notes produce sound out of the open tone holes. Brass always sends all sound out of the bell (though the French horn is usually pointed sideways and backwards with a hand in the bell to mute it).

I have no idea what aspect of the Chicago horns you are detecting as deficient, but you can try listening to something like Klipsch and see if that makes the difference. However, understand that you are making a trade off.

I generally find a standard dome (or ribbon) with good dispersion (but not so far as omnidirectional) is a good compromise for me.

2) Also consider that trombone, when played aggressively incorporates frequencies from 80Hz to 10kHz! Because I spend a lot of time playing with trombones they are definitely on my audition CD. Any significant dips or peaks through this range will show up, making the trombone one of the more demanding sounds to get right. So that could be the issue as well. When I think Chicago, I think bones!

 

[lovinthehd]

When I think Chicago, I think bones!

Eh?

 

[Bucknekked]

Eh?

bones, as in trombones......................hopefully

 

[MrBoat]

What it takes is good speakers. The design is not critical to a point.
It takes speakers with a good power band from 800 Hz to 15 KHz at least. Massed brass is also the very devil for showing up crossover problems. A lot of that power is right across the crossover region.

When I said up to a point, I know one line of speakers that reproduces what you are lacking exceptionally well. It is the Lowther speakers back horn loaded and using single very high efficiency full range drivers. I think that is one of the reasons many are so attracted to those speakers.

I noticed this even with the little full rangers I built. Even old stuff like Glenn Miller Orchestra, BBC Big Band, anything acoustic (unplugged) is well portrayed on these little boxes. Horns, vocals, acoustic six string sounds very live, if not lively, and actually pretty flawless to my ears. Of course, even though these are not Lowther in large BL horns, the bass from 120hz down has been handed off to a subwoofer, which is probably a good compromise to much the same result.