What makes a receiver sound better than others??

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if all recievers sound the same as many here believe then why bother with a review?, one review is glowing on sound yet the next unit is cold, another will claim its more dry, another is warm and yet another has a deeper soundstage then ever heard, these are examples but in general happen all the time. So if all units sound the same then I guess a reviewer is a con artist...including members and moderators on this and other websites who champion that they are looking out for the consumer. If somebody cant hear a diifference then so be it but for those that can or even just sense its better than another (myself included) why waste time *****ing about it?
Far too many worry about others and their individual opinions and prefrences as if its any of their business.....dont these folks have a wife, GF, kids, bills, jobs.any sort of life that would make taking time for these constant soapbox diatribe's silly, pointless and void of any real value?
It would appear that sites like this and others are about a mutual enjoyment of a passion we all share yet there is so much negative discourse one wonders whats the point? Maybe its a jealous envy, the fact one can say anything on the net they wish without showing any real qualifications other than a acceptable level of spelling skills, an issue of feeling threatened, insecurity, or the product of a bitter personality but far too many seem to thrive on knocking down and dismissing others enjoyment as if it makes any real point..........its a bit sad.
I KNOW vinyl sounds better than CD, cables can and do make a change in sound but are too often overpriced junk, seperates sound better than most recievers, and Emotiva is just as guilty as Monster and most any other business involved in electronics for its success made on the backs of children in China with 3 fingers forced to work their childhood away for an embarassing small wage and yet I would (or already have) buy products from both companies. Among other things I know is that there are plenty here who know what they are talking about but far too many who have not got a clue and I expect to hear from these folks very shortly in quoted replies, dismissal's and the famous attitude that only the anonymity of the internet can provide....cheers

I think it is possible that some people cannot tell the difference while some people can tell the difference among the receivers. Just because I cannot hear the difference does not give me the right to tell my friends that they are wrong. So I'm cool with my friends saying that they can tell the difference.

 

[Bluesmoke]

I think it is possible that some people cannot tell the difference while some people can tell the difference among the receivers. Just because I cannot hear the difference does not give me the right to tell my friends that they are wrong. So I'm cool with my friends saying that they can tell the difference.

Yea. I agree. Some of us can see Rainbows on DLPs. Others have no idea what that looks like but simply can't state that RBE doesn't exist.

Perhaps some people can discern audible differences that others simply cannot.

For example, comparing let's say a Harman Kardon receiver to a similar priced Yamaha. Say the HK 247 vs the Yamaha v661. I don't care what tests have been done, or measurements taken. To me the two sound different. The HK is definately more midrangey in its sound with a softer, mellower sound production than the Yamaha. I have no way of level matching but the Yamaha just doesn't sound like the HK to my ears.

 

[AdrianMills]

Yea. I agree. Some of us can see Rainbows on DLPs. Others have no idea what that looks like but simply can't state that RBE doesn't exist.

Perhaps some people can discern audible differences that others simply cannot.

For example, comparing let's say a Harman Kardon receiver to a similar priced Yamaha. Say the HK 247 vs the Yamaha v661. I don't care what tests have been done, or measurements taken. To me the two sound different. The HK is definately more midrangey in its sound with a softer, mellower sound production than the Yamaha. I have no way of level matching but the Yamaha just doesn't sound like the HK to my ears.

Yeah, but doesn't it strike you as a tad strange that those audible differences just up and vanish when a double blind test is performed?

Let me ask you another question; do those DLP rainbows disappear when you wear ear plugs?

 

[Seth=L]

Yeah, but doesn't it strike you as a tad strange that those audible differences just up and vanish when a double blind test is performed?

Let me ask you another question; do those DLP rainbows disappear when you wear ear plugs?

Next thing you know they will all be saying, "well if I can't see it I can't concentrate on it, so DBT's don't work."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

do those DLP rainbows disappear when you wear ear plugs?

No, really, seriously, I have no idea what the DLP "rainbows" are. I have a Mitsubishi DLP.

I wonder if GlocksRock, Greg, or Itchris (they also have Mitsubishi DLPs) have seen these rainbows on their TVs?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder if you guys would speak his harshly to someone's FACE in PERSON if he told you that he could hear these differences?

I guess only if he's not 6'5" and 300 lbs?

I mean I would just say that I disagree with him because of these double-blinded studies, but I wouldn't make all these rather harsh comments.

 

[AdrianMills]

I wonder if you guys would speak his harshly to someone's FACE in PERSON if he told you that he could hear these differences?

I guess only if he's not 6'5" and 300 lbs?

I mean I would just say that I disagree with him because of these double-blinded studies, but I wouldn't make all these rather harsh comments.

Remember, tone and body language can impart a whole other meaning on the words you see here. And, believe it or not, in the flesh my words would be more likely to raise smiles from those they were aimed at rather than frowns.



I kid you not - I have audiophile friends and we constantly take the pi$$ out of each other on topics such as this. It's all in good fun.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Remember, tone and body language can impart a whole other meaning on the words you see here. And, believe it or not, in the flesh my words would be more likely to raise smiles from those they were aimed at rather than frowns.



I kid you not - I have audiophile friends and we constantly take the pi$$ out of each other on topics such as this. It's all in good fun.

That's a good point.

If you say those words with smile , laughter, and friendly tone, it's totally different.

But normally, your close friends would be able to read you a lot better than strangers.

 

[GlocksRock]

No, really, seriously, I have no idea what the DLP "rainbows" are. I have a Mitsubishi DLP.

I wonder if GlocksRock, Greg, or Itchris (they also have Mitsubishi DLPs) have seen these rainbows on their TVs?

I've never seen it, but I have a friend who claims he has seen it on my tv before, but I can't remember if that was with my old Samsung, or my current Mitsubishi. But brand doesn't matter, the rainbow effect is a result of the spinning color wheel, and not everyone sees it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've never seen it, but I have a friend who claims he has seen it on my tv before, but I can't remember if that was with my old Samsung, or my current Mitsubishi. But brand doesn't matter, the rainbow effect is a result of the spinning color wheel, and not everyone sees it.

So are we blessed or color blind?

Or maybe we just don't have the GOLDEN EYES?

 

[GlocksRock]

I'd say we are blessed, the rainbow effect is something you don't want to see.

 

[Rickster71]

Taking into consideration that power and THD are not what really makes a reciever sounds good, what is it that really makes a reciever sound better than others?
What "specific specification" should we look for? Latest model recievers never show real continuous power output anymore or give much information about specifications that really matters for good sound.

I suppose Peter Aczel summed it up best:

If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them.

 

[maximoiglesias]

Interesting

Well, I started this post in a way to create awareness that audiophiles are not only people with high end gear. We at the lower end who can only relay on budget systems are also audiophiles at heart as we enjoy this hobby just the same.
Many many people are misguided by ads and reviews and sometimes spend more than they should in hifi gear not knowing that many of these gears sound the same regardless of price. As someone said before, the main diference lies in the features not in the performance.
The point is you can have a good sounding reciever even if it is a low cost one.
I see that many of you have enjoy this thread, thanks to all for responding to my original question.

 

[rnatalli]

I have certainly seen the rainbow effect, but that was some time ago when the DLP projectors were using, from what I gather, slower wheels. I had no idea what it was until I started researching the LCD vs. DLP arguments.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So if all recievers sound the same as many here believe then why bother with a review?,

Not sure where you are getting your idea from that we say "ALL" receivers sound the same? Maybe you can point to that post? No wonder urban legends never die

one review is glowing on sound yet the next unit is cold, another will claim its more dry, another is warm and yet another has a deeper soundstage then ever heard, these are examples but in general happen all the time.

Yes, these reports happen all the time. What does that mean? Are they right? How do you know? How did they evaluate the component? How did they control for their biases?
Yes, they/we all have biases and that is what you read in those reports.

So if all units sound the same then I guess a reviewer is a con artist..

A con artist is doing something knowingly. Perhaps the reviewer is a con artist, or he is electing to believe his perceptions are valid and not affected by his biases, if he even knows that ho has those biases affecting his perceptions in the first place. In that case, he is guilty of conveniently not bothering to find out about human psychology, almost as bad as being a con artist, yes.

but for those that can or even just sense its better than another (myself included) why waste time *****ing about it?

Is educating the public so wrong? And, you assume that "those who can" really can. A big assumption.

Far too many worry about others and their individual opinions and prefrences as if its any of their business...

If it is not our business, don't post in public. That is rather simple, no?

..dont these folks have a wife, GF, kids, bills, jobs.any sort of life that would make taking time for these constant soapbox diatribe's silly, pointless and void of any real value?

Appreciate being concerned about our life; so noted. I will answer for it myself though, thanks.

It would appear that sites like this and others are about a mutual enjoyment of a passion we all share yet there is so much negative discourse one wonders whats the point?

Negative discourse? You mean taking issues with other's opinion, experience, perception, etc? Are we all supposed to just agree with everyone? If that is the case, perhaps you need to agree with us???

Maybe its a jealous envy,

About what?You have more that someone else? LOL

the fact one can say anything on the net they wish without showing any real qualifications

Do you have any real qualifications? A little internal examination may be in order???

other than a acceptable level of spelling skills,

Oh, now it is ones spelling skills or lack there of an issue?

I KNOW

You know all these things? Or, you just think you know?
Where is that test you passed to know? Be very careful about what you really know.
Yes, cheers

 

[Josuah]

People were mentioning things like THD and SNR and frequency response. Something else not mentioned, which isn't measured for, is how quickly notes start and stop. I've never seen a measurement for that. But you can make this happen yourself if you stick a resistor in series with the output, I think. Doing so will make voltage transitions take longer.

And single-blind level matched testing is fine for me, thank you very much. If I can pick out my eyeglasses using single-blind testing, I can do the same with my gear. Also using two oscilloscope channels in difference mode will be non-flat if the outputs are different.

The analog output on a cheap DVD player is extremely audible. No need for any measurements there. Additional noise coming out of nowhere.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No, really, seriously, I have no idea what the DLP "rainbows" are. I have a Mitsubishi DLP.
?

But you see, the posters analogy is very lame since the rainbow effect can be demonstrated in a controlled manner and has been demonstrated.
So is audible differences can be demonstrated. But, in many cases, if not most, when the proper conditions are applied to control for bias, those differences are not present, unlike the rainbow effect. And, even that, may have a threshold level as do audible differences have.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I wonder if you guys would speak his harshly to someone's FACE in PERSON if he told you that he could hear these differences?

I guess only if he's not 6'5" and 300 lbs?

I mean I would just say that I disagree with him because of these double-blinded studies, but I wouldn't make all these rather harsh comments.

I would ask him to demonstrate his skills under better conditions Why would his size matter unless he is the belligerent type

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Something else not mentioned, which isn't measured for, is how quickly notes start and stop. I've never seen a measurement for that. But you can make this happen yourself if you stick a resistor in series with the output, I think. Doing so will make voltage transitions take longer.

Yes, but that is a speaker issue. And, with that moving, dynamic music, I bet you would not be able to use that single trait to differentiate components with the same speakers, unless the basic component design is faulty.

... Also using two oscilloscope channels in difference mode will be non-flat if the outputs are different.

Yes, but visual difference not necessarily translate to audible differences.

 

[fmw]

So if all recievers sound the same as many here believe then why bother with a review?

Because there are many things to review about a product other than the way it sounds. Personally, as soon as a reviewer starts with subjective sound quality adjectives, I tune right out. Sadly, that kind of stuff is what sells reviews and magazines. People don't want to accept the fact that modern amplifiers do their job with complete accuracy, whether it is true or not. So we get the subjective prose. That's how it has always been and how it will likely always be.