What makes a receiver sound better than others??

[mtrycrafts]

This has shown be be patently false so many times now I've lost track of all the DBT that have been performed.

I have one caveat; on the high end forum on AVS I've seen technical people that I respect refer to valid tests of external DACs that have shown a subtle but audible difference. Of course it's debatable how audible those differences would be during normal listening.

Thanks.
And yes, I wonder how audible those DACs are with music, etc. if the DAC is working properly.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I agree, a lot of people rely on brands and brand fame. In order for you to know if a reciever sounds "warmer" or better than other you got to have these recievers in your listening room for some time using the same speakers and sound source.

Even cables dont make such a great audible difference.

Or, one can check the FR specs and output impedance of that amp and get a very good idea how flat the response. Long term listening is not a panacea and that too needs to be carefully controlled for that duration so bias will not alter reality.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No they don't.

I should have asked for that citation that mandates the differences

 

[fmw]

The amps in all receivers have flat frequency response, low noise floor and inaudible distortion. That means that none of them alter the shape of the waveforms they amplify to any meaningful degree. What makes A/V receivers sound different is the EQ and setup program which, not surprisingly, does change the shape of the waveforms. How that EQ program interacts with your speakers and the room in which they are placed will determine how it sounds.

 

[Davidt1]

The amps in all receivers have flat frequency response, low noise floor and inaudible distortion. That means that none of them alter the shape of the waveforms they amplify to any meaningful degree. What makes A/V receivers sound different is the EQ and setup program which, not surprisingly, does change the shape of the waveforms. How that EQ program interacts with your speakers and the room in which they are placed will determine how it sounds.

I like your explanation. I believe the sound goes through some processing in the receiver. Each brand does the processing differently. I read somewhere that HK receivers boost the midrange a bit. All I know is about 7 years ago I bought an Onkyo receiver and returned it in one week because it sounded lifeless to me. I replaced it with an HK receiver, and it's been with me 7 years now.

 

[Pyrrho]

Taking into consideration that power and THD are not what really makes a reciever sounds good, what is it that really makes a reciever sound better than others?

An overactive imagination conjoined with a failure to conduct level matched, double blind tests. Also, when one is malfunctioning, or operating beyond its capabilities (e.g., driven into clipping, etc.) a difference can often be actually heard.

I went from a $600 receiver to a $1600 receiver, and they sound the same. If I needed the extra power, the more expensive one would sound better, but since I don't need the extra power, they sound the same. I bought the more expensive one for its features, and in that way, it is vastly better.

What "specific specification" should we look for? Latest model recievers never show real continuous power output anymore or give much information about specifications that really matters for good sound.

Unless you are driving low impedance speakers or very inefficient speakers or you listen at literally deafening volume levels, you need not worry about this too much. No properly functioning receiver from a respectable company will sound bad when operated within its limits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I like your explanation. I believe the sound goes through some processing in the receiver. Each brand does the processing differently. I read somewhere that HK receivers boost the midrange a bit. All I know is about 7 years ago I bought an Onkyo receiver and returned it in one week because it sounded lifeless to me. I replaced it with an HK receiver, and it's been with me 7 years now.

This processing happens only when the receivers have a built in EQ and it is engaged in auto or manually used to shave the FR. Otherwise, if they are off, there should not be any processing and the frequency response will remain flat. This also applies to HK. Check the FR on it, it is flat.

 

[Seth=L]

I should have asked for that citation that mandates the differences

I don't even waste time explaining it to them anymore, I just quote them with a few simple words and wait for a response (or rather when they do respond I am not around to respond again and everything works itself out naturally).

 

[AdrianMills]

This processing happens only when the receivers have a built in EQ and it is engaged in auto or manually used to shave the FR. Otherwise, if they are off, there should not be any processing and the frequency response will remain flat. This also applies to HK. Check the FR on it, it is flat.

Is it me or are these "amp/receiver X is warmer/brighter than amp/receiver Y" type of posts getting more common here these days? I mean really, this is Audioholics not AA.

At this rate it will end up like AVS and the super tweak posts; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1030506
Scary.

 

[Seth=L]

Is it me or are these "amp/receiver X is warmer/brighter than amp/receiver Y" type of posts getting more common here these days? I mean really, this is Audioholics not AA.

At this rate it will end up like AVS and the super tweak posts; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1030506
Scary.

The Audiophiles are making a comeback.

 

[Davidt1]

Man, the tone-deaf crowd are having a hard time making people see things their way. Me, I couldn't care less if you could hear a difference or not. I only posted my observation.

 

[Seth=L]

Man, the tone-deaf crowd are having a hard time making people see things their way. Me, I couldn't care less if you could hear a difference or not. I only posted my observation.

When a FR is noted as flat, logically and mathematically it wouldn't make a difference so long as the equipment is working within it's design parameters. Your personal bias is making the change, the receivers are not (unless one is faulty). I think it's fair to assume that not all Onkyos are faulty or that not all H/Ks are faulty.

If the numbers show they aren't audible different (measured by devices that go beyond human hearing thresholds) then your assertion of your perceived experience is nothing more than that. H/K has marketed itself to form the belief their products have a warm sound character. Denon and Marantz also have this same "characteristic" where Onkyos sound "harsh" and Yamahas sound cold and forward. Having owned and used many receivers I can say if there is an audible difference, it's not enough to alter the experience enough to warrant changing to another receiver.

Take Goldilocks for example. In the short story Goldilocks encounters three bowls of porridge. One is too cold, one is too hot, one is just right. Well imagine Goldilocks of the modern day, where the food was all cooked at once. All the bowls are the same size and filled to approximately the same amount of porridge from the same pot. Take into consideration the slight variances such as the slightly different amounts pored into each bowl and perhaps how close one sat to an air condition vent, or near and open window or door. You then proceed to measure their temperature with a very precise thermometer after the bowls have sat for 5 minutes. You may get slightly different measurements, but chances are if you take a bite from each bowl you wouldn't notice that difference in temperature.

The problem with most Goldilocks of the modern day is they haven't quite accepted the change of modern porridge making. Those porridgephiles get hooked on that one bowl and the porridge it contains believing it fits their pallet the best, and others do not (being that one is too cold and one is too hot).

 

[AdrianMills]

When a FR is noted as flat, logically and mathematically it wouldn't make a difference so long as the equipment is working within it's design parameters. Your personal bias is making the change, the receivers are not (unless one is faulty). I think it's fair to assume that not all Onkyos are faulty or that not all H/Ks are faulty.

If the numbers show they aren't audible different (measured by devices that go beyond human hearing thresholds) then your assertion of your perceived experience is nothing more than that. H/K has marketed itself to form the belief their products have a warm sound character. Denon and Marantz also have this same "characteristic" where Onkyos sound "harsh" and Yamahas sound cold and forward. Having owned and used many receivers I can say if there is an audible difference, it's not enough to alter the experience enough to warrant changing to another receiver.

Take Goldilocks for example. In the short story Goldilocks encounters three bowls of porridge. One is too cold, one is too hot, one is just right. Well imagine Goldilocks of the modern day, where the food was all cooked at once. All the bowls are the same size and filled to approximately the same amount of porridge from the same pot. Take into consideration the slight variances such as the slightly different amounts pored into each bowl and perhaps how close one sat to an air condition vent, or near and open window or door. You then proceed to measure their temperature with a very precise thermometer after the bowls have sat for 5 minutes. You may get slightly different measurements, but chances are if you take a bite from each bowl you wouldn't notice that difference in temperature.

The problem with most Goldilocks of the modern day is they haven't quite accepted the change of modern porridge making. Those porridgephiles get hooked on that one bowl and the porridge it contains believing it fits their pallet the best, and others do not (being that one is too cold and one is too hot).

Cool.

Next time anyone asks these questions I will answer concisely with, "Don't worry, they are just like porridge".

 

[Midcow2]

The add on features.. is the difference

What are you looking for?

Difference beyond S/N ratio and THD are sound effects, equalizers.

Do you listen to radio :FM/AM then sensitivity is important. HD adds sound quality.

Do you have efficient speakers ? power is important; remember power is logrithmic.

Some differences:


(1) Sound: TruHDm Dolby Digital plus, Dolby Pro Logic II, xdts-HD master Audio, Neural THX. THX select 2, THX Ukltra 2 pllus surround EX,Neo 6, XM HD surround, XM satellite ready, HD radio , S/N ratio, snesitivity


(2) Multiple separate zones for video and sound 2,3,4


(3) HDMI; (A) level 1.3a video and audio, number of inputs- 2,3,4 , (B) number of output: 1,2, (C)upconversion from 480i/480p to HMDI important is you are viewing older SD DVDs, SDTV, (D) Deep Color, xvYCC and DACD supported by HDMI


(4) DAC conversion 192kHz / 24 bit

 

[jliedeka]

I would point out that the numbers put out by most companies for WPC etc are not to be trusted. The FTC mandated certain criteria for WPC, I think it was a 1khz signal played with 1% distortion or less. Nobody even gives that lip service anymore.

I might give more weight to semi-independent measurements from places like SoundStage or Stereophile. The problem they can't review, much less measure everything. The chances of all your candidates having independent measurements are small.

Jim

 

[mtrycrafts]

At this rate it will end up like AVS and the super tweak posts; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1030506
Scary.

Hey, thanks for that link
That person Mike is the same one who relented on doing a DBt with his $40k speaker wires, 2 sets per speakers, against a monster cable
He was going to challenge The Amazing Randi and his $1mil prize.
Unfortunately, he could not differentiate his cables from the Monster
Now he is posting his next round of audio voodoo.
Some just don't know when to quit.

 

[AdrianMills]

Hey, thanks for that link
That person Mike is the same one who relented on doing a DBt with his $40k speaker wires, 2 sets per speakers, against a monster cable
He was going to challenge The Amazing Randi and his $1mil prize.
Unfortunately, he could not differentiate his cables from the Monster
Now he is posting his next round of audio voodoo.
Some just don't know when to quit.

Yes, that's him. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13957216&postcount=133

I really don't think he gets it at all.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, that's him. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13957216&postcount=133

I really don't think he gets it at all.

Some are in lala land when it comes to their hobby or perhaps most of their living lives

 

[chadnliz]

So if all recievers sound the same as many here believe then why bother with a review?, one review is glowing on sound yet the next unit is cold, another will claim its more dry, another is warm and yet another has a deeper soundstage then ever heard, these are examples but in general happen all the time. So if all units sound the same then I guess a reviewer is a con artist...including members and moderators on this and other websites who champion that they are looking out for the consumer. If somebody cant hear a diifference then so be it but for those that can or even just sense its better than another (myself included) why waste time *****ing about it?
Far too many worry about others and their individual opinions and prefrences as if its any of their business.....dont these folks have a wife, GF, kids, bills, jobs.any sort of life that would make taking time for these constant soapbox diatribe's silly, pointless and void of any real value?
It would appear that sites like this and others are about a mutual enjoyment of a passion we all share yet there is so much negative discourse one wonders whats the point? Maybe its a jealous envy, the fact one can say anything on the net they wish without showing any real qualifications other than a acceptable level of spelling skills, an issue of feeling threatened, insecurity, or the product of a bitter personality but far too many seem to thrive on knocking down and dismissing others enjoyment as if it makes any real point..........its a bit sad.
I KNOW vinyl sounds better than CD, cables can and do make a change in sound but are too often overpriced junk, seperates sound better than most recievers, and Emotiva is just as guilty as Monster and most any other business involved in electronics for its success made on the backs of children in China with 3 fingers forced to work their childhood away for an embarassing small wage and yet I would (or already have) buy products from both companies. Among other things I know is that there are plenty here who know what they are talking about but far too many who have not got a clue and I expect to hear from these folks very shortly in quoted replies, dismissal's and the famous attitude that only the anonymity of the internet can provide....cheers

 

[AdrianMills]

I know is that there are plenty here who know what they are talking about but far too many who have not got a clue and I expect to hear from these folks very shortly in quoted replies, dismissal's and the famous attitude that only the anonymity of the internet can provide....cheers

Actually dude, there was a time that I'd expend some energy on replying to people like you but to be honest, I no longer care enough to bother. The OP has my opinion which is shared by a lot of very knowledgeable people here. If you want to continue to believe in fairies in spite of what people and the many technical articles on this site say then that's fine by me but it makes me wonder why you aren’t frequenting Audio Asylum instead.