What makes a good turntable?

[pewternhrata]

A turntable on its own should provide rock steady speed (and adjustment for such if needed) and very low mechanical noise. The rest is up to the arm and cartridge. When buying a turntable with its own arm, more likely differences would be mainly in the cartridge used. If you spend a lot more on the arm, you might get some improvements whether truly audible, maybe. The whole vinyl thing is overrated IMO, though....when cd came out I switched over fairly quickly. Haven't bought new vinyl in 30 years, altho I still have my vinyl collection and Technics SL1200mk2 (and maybe it's tenth cartridge or so).

I hold onto my vinyl for the artwork, tried getting back into playing it but too much of a nuance to clean, static pops are cool in an old nostalgia appeal. I get the analog vs digital debate but I choose physical cd every time. I have some sacd and it has its appeal, but honestly I don't hear the difference.

 

[lovinthehd]

I hold onto my vinyl for the artwork, tried getting back into playing it but too much of a nuance to clean, static pops are cool in an old nostalgia appeal. I get the analog vs digital debate but I choose physical cd every time. I have some sacd and it has its appeal, but honestly I don't hear the difference.

Yeah I just use SACD for multich versions. The 2ch versions, meh. My biggest reason to keep my vinyl is nostalgia I think....at least as long as I have a tt to play it with (same one for 40 years now). I was just thinking the other day there are some vinyls I can play where I can anticipate certain damage/pops even though I haven't listened to it for a long time (but many many plays back in the day burned it in I suppose).

 

[pewternhrata]

Yeah I just use SACD for multich versions. The 2ch versions, meh. My biggest reason to keep my vinyl is nostalgia I think....at least as long as I have a tt to play it with (same one for 40 years now). I was just thinking the other day there are some vinyls I can play where I can anticipate certain damage/pops even though I haven't listened to it for a long time (but many many plays back in the day burned it in I suppose).

So honest question; sacd multi channel, say dark side of the moon. I have a denon dvd2900 but only in a 2 channel setup, would i benefit with integrating that into my surround sound?

 

[lovinthehd]

So honest question; sacd multi channel, say dark side of the moon. I have a denon dvd2900 but only in a 2 channel setup, would i benefit with integrating that into my surround sound?

Looks like the optical disc player is capable, but the 2ch setup isn't. I have several multich setups otoh so not a restriction for me and the one 2ch only setup I have with an older optical disc player, altho it can handle dvd 5ch, just use 2ch output. Downmixing I can't see as a goal particularly

 

[m. zillch]

So honest question; sacd multi channel, say dark side of the moon. I have a denon dvd2900 but only in a 2 channel setup, would i benefit with integrating that into my surround sound?

If I remember correctly, in that song where the guy is running through the airport (?) terminal you hear him run behind you at one point on the multi-channel SACD. Kind of cool.

 

[lovinthehd]

If I remember correctly, in that song where the guy is running through the airport (?) terminal you hear him run behind you at one point on the multi-channel SACD. Kind of cool.

So that's just when using 2ch?

 

[m. zillch]

No (although I never checked it) I was speaking to when playing the multichannel SACD layer on a setup capable of providing multi-channel speakers. The Denon DVD2900 has 5.1 analog outputs, I believe, so conceivably there could be a way to hook it up in his surround sound system. [I don't know the full details of what the gear is, like if it has the required 5.1 analog inputs.]

I happened to see a used receiver today at my local Goodwill store with 5.1 analog inputs. $40! I was tempted to buy it (even though I have no need for it) since that feature is so rare these days on affordable gear.

 

[highfigh]

Interesting, for in the early years there was so much 'poorly' converted material (remember AAD, ADD, etc.) that noise levels on top flight TT playback systems still rained supreme. Eventually I did come around to the 'silver disc' though and today all three, including streaming, occupy my playback setup

What S/N specs were turntables reaching? If the phono preamp isn't capable of better than 84dB (14 bit), it can't be left to the vinyl itself to be more quiet than the preamp and it's not. The CDs that were based on vinyl masters were mostly pretty bad-sounding but as soon as they started remastering for digital, the noise level of CDs became unreachable. However, even if someone paid full price for the early CD players, and they were expensive, the S/N level of DDD was better than the best vinyl reproduction systems because clicks & pops are almost impossible to completely eliminate.

Hearing the noise on some of the earliest CDs really took the sheen off of the format for me (as someone who worked at one of the first 50 Sony dealers that received the initial shipment of four units)- so much emphasis was on the lack of background noise, but that was before the actual release and Sony mainly used music that had been produced by their partners for demo purposes.

 

[HenryCollins123]

In many cases the cartridge and setup matter more than the turntable itself. Two decks like Fluance and Audio-Technica can sound similar if they use similar cartridges. The main things that improve a turntable are a better cartridge/stylus, stable speed, low vibration, and a solid tonearm.

 

[TLS Guy]

In many cases the cartridge and setup matter more than the turntable itself. Two decks like Fluance and Audio-Technica can sound similar if they use similar cartridges. The main things that improve a turntable are a better cartridge/stylus, stable speed, low vibration, and a solid tonearm.

It is actually a bit more complicated than that. Ideally PU arm and cartridge should be designed as a unit. There should be a close relationship between cartridge compliance and total PU arm moving mass. The higher the cartridge compliance the less the moving mass should be and vice versa. The reason for this is that the stylus suspension is essentially a spring, and the arm the weight on the spring.

Obviously you need a stable turntable speed and ultra low vibration.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Good? Do you mean compared to digital? Has it ever occurred to you that the people who told you a turntable can sound good were either mistaken, exaggerating, or lying?

No. Turntables dont sound good, they sound great. Not sure why people enjoy listening to 1s and 0s. I find it distracting. Music is analog.

And im not sure who these people are who think vinyl has a "noise." It doesn't. Unless you dont know how to take care of your records, noise, pops, hiss aren't that common. Ive listened to records for close to 60 years. Some records are that old. They still sound new. The only albums that had any issues were the ones I played without a cue lever while drunk.

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL listening to 1s and 0s. Playback is still analog.

 

[dlaloum]

I'll support TLS Guy on the arm/cartridge matching - this is absolutely critical to optimal performance.

And a heck of a lot of retailers have no idea, so the cartridge flavour of the month gets whacked onto the arm, with little regard for whether it works well together or not!

Having said that, most arms out there new today, are mid mass, and most cartridges out there today are mid compliance - so they work well together.
But if you are shopping vintage, this is absolutely not the case....

I own a Revox linear tracking turntable, with an arm mass of 4g - it was originally designed for ultra high compliance cartridges - which are an extinct genre... with a bit of work, you can increase its mass to around 7g by fitting a T4p /P-Mount adapter, and then you can use the p-mount cartridges which are high compliance, but for which you can still get styli... so endangered but not extinct.
At one stage in the late 70's or early 80's, the Empire company partnered with Revox to make a custom version of the linatrack turntable, using a brass arm to increase the mass (with heavier duty other fixtures for the arm to match) - this then raised the mass to mid mass and allowed it to match well with mid compliance cartridge - at the time Empire was partnering with VanDenHull making mid compliance MC cartridges - which apparently worked very well indeed in the custom Empire Linatrack TT...

In any case there are other low mass arms that mate best with high compliance cartridges - any T4p / P-mount arm would be around 7g.

Typical Technics Sl1200 style arms are around 12g....

 

[TLS Guy]

No. Turntables dont sound good, they sound great. Not sure why people enjoy listening to 1s and 0s. I find it distracting. Music is analog.

And im not sure who these people are who think vinyl has a "noise." It doesn't. Unless you dont know how to take care of your records, noise, pops, hiss aren't that common. Ive listened to records for close to 60 years. Some records are that old. They still sound new. The only albums that had any issues were the ones I played without a cue lever while drunk.

There is so much wrong with your post, and we have to continue to debunk that myth you are espoising.

First off I agree LPs can and do sound very good and the surfaces are very silent. However they would not be so silent and low distortion without the use of dynamic range compression. An analog LP gives you at maximum 60 db dynamic range. If it did not the groove could not be cut, and surface noise would be intrusive. The other issue is that very deep bass has to be rolled off, otherwise you would have poor side length and few if any cartridges would track the groove.

I have a very large collection of LPs going back to 1954 when I was seven years old. I own four very good turntables all vintage, well cared for, properly set up and maintained. I enjoy my vinyl collection still, but I don't pretend it is as good a modern digital technology.

The fact the the digital system is binary, does not mean the music is and far from it. In any event when you listen to your vintage AR turntable via your digital receiver, you are listening to digital audio. That receiver you list converts analog audio to digital and back to analog just so you can use your digital volume control on your receiver.

This video explains why this 1-0 staircase nonsense is just that.

Your turntable is iconic due to its age, and introduced many to reasonable quality disc reproduction, but was always a budget turntable, but it has significant shortcomings. For one thing it has no anti skate compensation, and the arm is relatively crude in design. If you really want to enjoy vinyl at its best then an turntable upgrade would definitely achieve that. There are new and vintage options. Three of my turntables are older than your AR.

These turntables date from the sixties and turntables were sold without PU arms and plinths. They have had some different arms over the years.

This is my newest turntable, that I bought non working and restored it and found and SME series III arm for it.

 

[highfigh]

No. Turntables dont sound good, they sound great. Not sure why people enjoy listening to 1s and 0s. I find it distracting. Music is analog.

And im not sure who these people are who think vinyl has a "noise." It doesn't. Unless you dont know how to take care of your records, noise, pops, hiss aren't that common. Ive listened to records for close to 60 years. Some records are that old. They still sound new. The only albums that had any issues were the ones I played without a cue lever while drunk.

What kind of turntable and cartridge did you use ~60 years ago? If a ceramic cartridge typical at that time was used, there's no chance that the recordings can sound "new".

Vinyl isn't noise-free. The surface isn't totally smooth and the grain size of the Carbon Black used in the plastic is one of the reasons. That means, a good cartridge will send electrical signal that corresponds to the noise AND the music. Finer grain is used for 'audiophile' LPs, not for low priced product. Also, there's no guarantee that the plastic used for general production LPs was 'virgin vinyl', which means it had never been molded into a product's shape- a lot of it is called 're-grind', which is exactly a it sounds- defective units are dumped into a hopper, ground to a size that's similar to the virgin vinyl and mixed before going to the press. I had at least one LP with pieces of cardboard from the box it was in before being dumped into the grinder. If I still have it, I'll post a photo. It was about 1/8", rough diameter.

Surface noise is real, denial isn't. It's the reason a diamond or other gemstone stylus tip wears away. 16 bit PCM allows 96dB dynamic range- LPs can't do that without help, as TLS posted.

 

[highfigh]

This is my newest turntable, that I bought non working and restored it and found and SME series III arm for it.

If I find a Thorens similar to this one and it needs parts, would it be a practical goal to replace what's needed, or are parts too hard to find? Or, is it likely that people are disassembling these to make more money, as they do with other collectible electronics?

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

My first turnable was my dad's Garrard. The first turntable I bought was a Dual in 1976. I purchased the AR XA off of eBay in 2007. I currently have a Mobile Fidelity Studio deck with their cartridge, but im going to be updating the cartridge to a MC. At the moment, its running through a Graham Slee Special Edition Gram Amp 2, but I'll be upgrading that as well,

I enjoy the sound I get from vinyl. I said what I said because I find it rude that whenever someone asks about turntables, the thread ends up with all the Digital Apostles preaching what a waste of time and money vinyl is and the holy grail is CDs.

 

[m. zillch]

There's nothing wrong about liking turntables and liking vinyl, just like there's nothing wrong with liking bicycles. But when I'm on a bicycle forum and a person claims something along the lines of, "Bikes have better acceleration than cars!" they're going to encounter push-back.

P.S. Today I spent several hours setting up and preparing my turntable for a new album I'm expecting to arrive soon.

I have owned and liked many cars, bikes, turntables, and digital devices. They aren't mutually exclusive categories.

 

[highfigh]

But when I'm on a bicycle forum and a person claims something along the lines of, "Bikes have better acceleration than cars!" they're going to encounter push-back.

What are they on and where can I get some? Better acceleration than cars?

Ever get the urge to post NHRA videos to prove them wrong?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ever get the urge to post NHRA videos to prove them wrong?

Yes!!!!!!!