What is wrong with HT Magazine Part 2?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, so I've been waiting for Home Theater Magazine to review the awesome Denon combo separates (AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI).

I'm thinking the measurements have got to blow everything away, right?

The AVP's measurements are like:
FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.4 dB
THD: 0.03%
Crosstalk: -88dB
SNR: 110dB


The Denon AVR-5308's measurements are like:
FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB
THD: 0.004%
Crosstalk: -92dB
SNR: 110dB

Shouldn't the AVP-A1HDCI measure A LOT better than the AVR-5308?

 

[Lordoftherings]

So, what's wrong with that?

 

[Pyrrho]

Okay, so I've been waiting for Home Theater Magazine to review the awesome Denon combo separates (AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI).

I'm thinking the measurements have got to blow everything away, right?

The AVP's measurements are like:
FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.4 dB
THD: 0.03%
Crosstalk: -88dB
SNR: 110dB


The Denon AVR-5308's measurements are like:
FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB
THD: 0.004%
Crosstalk: -92dB
SNR: 110dB

Shouldn't the AVP-A1HDCI measure A LOT better than the AVR-5308?

You apparently have succumbed to the myth that putting electronics in separate boxes makes it magically better. It does not. Whether a unit is a receiver or divided up into a separate tuner, preamp, and power amp makes no difference in the quality of the electronics itself. Manufacturers decide what to put into separate boxes and what to put all together, and that decision is what matters when selecting particular units. Separates can be better, but only if manufacturers choose to make them better. But if the manufacturer chooses to put their best into one box, and lessor electronics in separates, then the receiver will be better.

Additionally, there are non-sound related issues that affect cost. For example, putting something into a cast aluminum box will cost more than putting it in a sheet metal box. And cast aluminum knobs cost more than plastic or lessor metal knobs. It may look more impressive that way, but it does not help the sound of the electronics.

I suspect that there is at least one error in your quoted measurements. "FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB" is unlikely to be true. There is some variation in the frequency response, though it may be practically perfect as far as human hearing is concerned.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I suspect that there is at least one error in your quoted measurements. "FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB" is unlikely to be true. There is some variation in the frequency response, though it may be practically perfect as far as human hearing is concerned.

Sorry but there are several good amps and preamps with a perfect frequency response of +/-0db from 20hz to 20khz.

 

[Pyrrho]

Sorry but there are several good amps and preamps with a perfect frequency response of +/-0db from 20hz to 20khz.

That is simply false. They may not tell you the deviation from perfection, but you can rest assured, no piece of equipment is absolutely perfect in the flatness of its frequency response.

In the case of the Denon AVR-5308CI, they list the frequency response as:

10 Hz ~ 100 kHz +1, –3 dB (DIRECT mode)​

on page 110 of the manual:

http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-5308CI-OM-E_207A.pdf

At no point do they claim that it is perfectly flat between 20-20,000 Hz. When mentioning various specifications from 20-20,000 Hz, they simply do not list the deviation from being perfectly flat.

Show me a company that claims to have made an amplifier with absolutely perfectly flat frequency response from 20-20,000Hz, and I will show you a company that lies.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I'm not talking about what they claimed, I'm talking about what's been measured.

OK, they have a super tiny small deviation, like 0.00011, so what?
That's dam near pretty flat to me.

 

[Pyrrho]

I'm not talking about what they claimed, I'm talking about what's been measured.

OK, they have a super tiny small deviation, like 0.00011, so what?
That's dam near pretty flat to me.

What I originally said was:

...
I suspect that there is at least one error in your quoted measurements. "FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB" is unlikely to be true. There is some variation in the frequency response, though it may be practically perfect as far as human hearing is concerned.

If you agree with that, then why did you claim otherwise?

 

[Superfly]

Okay, so I've been waiting for Home Theater Magazine to review the awesome Denon combo separates (AVP-A1HDCI/POA-A1HDCI).

I'm thinking the measurements have got to blow everything away, right?

The AVP's measurements are like:
FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.4 dB
THD: 0.03%
Crosstalk: -88dB
SNR: 110dB


The Denon AVR-5308's measurements are like:
FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB
THD: 0.004%
Crosstalk: -92dB
SNR: 110dB

Shouldn't the AVP-A1HDCI measure A LOT better than the AVR-5308?

looking at theses numbers

FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB the lower the db rating the better eg +/- 3db is good buy +/-2db is better.

For Crosstalk the higher the number is better -92db is better than -87db

and the higher the SNR the better. SNR of 110db isn't as good as 121db

am I correct?

What is the priority if you are to give up one set of numbers for another?
eg is the higher SNR more important than the Crosstalk.etc..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

looking at theses numbers

FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB the lower the db rating the better eg +/- 3db is good buy +/-2db is better.

For Crosstalk the higher the number is better -92db is better than -87db

and the higher the SNR the better. SNR of 110db isn't as good as 121db

am I correct?

What is the priority if you are to give up one set of numbers for another?
eg is the higher SNR more important than the Crosstalk.etc..

You are correct.

I would give SNR the most importance.

Then THD%, then Crosstalk, then FR.

But it's usually all academic for spec-whores-geeks to talk about.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I suspect that there is at least one error in your quoted measurements. "FR: 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0 dB" is unlikely to be true.

You are mistaken.

20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0dB is very COMMON - also measured many times here on Audioholics!

What you are THINKING about is the 10 Hz - 100 kHz or 5 Hz - 150 kHz spectrum, etc.

What I'm talking about is the 20 Hz - 20 kHz only.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In the case of the Denon AVR-5308CI, they list the frequency response as:

10 Hz ~ 100 kHz +1, –3 dB (DIRECT mode)​

Exactly.

Those numbers are NOT 20 Hz - 20 kHz, but are 10 Hz - 100 kHz!!!

Like humans hear down to 10 Hz and up to 100 kHz?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So, what's wrong with that?

What do you mean what's wrong with that?

The AVP/POA were suppose to be the best EVER. Period. End of discussion.

I was expecting SNR -140dBA, THD 0.0004%, Crosstalk -130dB, & FR 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.00dB!!!

That's what's wrong with it!

 

[Lordoftherings]

What do you mean what's wrong with that?

The AVP/POA were suppose to be the best EVER. Period. End of discussion.

I was expecting SNR -140dBA, THD 0.0004%, Crosstalk -130dB, & FR 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.00dB!!!

That's what's wrong with it!

LOL. I just luv it! Your answer is just,...perfect.

* But for THD, I'd rather see: 0.00001%.
And about Crosstalk? I think that -140db would look a bit better, don't you think?

 

[Pyrrho]

You are mistaken.

20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0dB is very COMMON - also measured many times here on Audioholics!

What you are THINKING about is the 10 Hz - 100 kHz or 5 Hz - 150 kHz spectrum, etc.

What I'm talking about is the 20 Hz - 20 kHz only.

If they are common, then you should be able to provide a link to one. I have never seen anyone claiming 20-20,000 Hz +/- 0 dB.

 

[3db]

Here we ago again Specs aren't everything. for eg. If the seperates are in a noisy environemnt and have balanced inputs/outputs, I would rather the seperates then the 5830 as it has better noise immunity regardless of how flat the frequency response curves are. I guarantee you that you would not be able to hear any difference between the seperates and the receiver. Not one.

 

[Lordoftherings]

^ I'll say, that puts the final nail on the coffin.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here we ago again Specs aren't everything. for eg. If the seperates are in a noisy environemnt and have balanced inputs/outputs, I would rather the seperates then the 5830 as it has better noise immunity regardless of how flat the frequency response curves are. I guarantee you that you would not be able to hear any difference between the seperates and the receiver. Not one.

Most of us know that, but it's still good conversation material.

Just like most of us don't care about vinyl news, but some do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If they are common, then you should be able to provide a link to one. I have never seen anyone claiming 20-20,000 Hz +/- 0 dB.

Here is one example:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/808denr/index3.html

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.08 dB at 10 Hz; –0.00 dB at 20 Hz
+0.04 dB at 20 kHz; –2.66 dB at 50 kHz

As you can see, @ 20 Hz it is -0.00dB. @ 20 kHz, it is +0.04dB.

So if you round to the nearest 1-decimal place, the overall frequency response is 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.0dB.

You can check out all the Onkyo receivers on this site and see that practically all of them have this type of FR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

LOL. I just luv it! Your answer is just,...perfect.

* But for THD, I'd rather see: 0.00001%.
And about Crosstalk? I think that -140db would look a bit better, don't you think?

If that were true, I would have to buy them IMMEDIATLY.

 

[mtrycrafts]

LOL. I just luv it! Your answer is just,...perfect.

* But for THD, I'd rather see: 0.00001%.
And about Crosstalk? I think that -140db would look a bit better, don't you think?

Yes, -140 does look better, if better looking is a smaller number, but your ears can only hear and not see

I'd rather see 0% THD but it may never happen