What is the importance of an amplifier, really?

[etecnifibre]

I have a Pioneer elite VSX-23TXH, Paradigm CC-690 and SA-35's up front, 3 SA-ADPs in the rear in a 6.1 config. Sub12. I added two of the Emotiva XPA-3, 200W 3 channel amps. I've lost one channel which is under warranty, will be fixed soon. I never really noticed a difference after I hooked the amps up, sounded the same to me as it did being driven directly from the receiver. Is there something I'm missing? I'm thinking about selling the amps and buying a new TV.

 

[Scumfrog]

If you can't hear a difference then sell and get something else. It's your money and they are your ears. Trust your ears and enjoy your new TV.
Mike

 

[Adam]

If you can't hear a difference then sell and get something else. It's your money and they are your ears. Trust your ears and enjoy your new TV.
Mike

Agreed.

I bought an amp back in 2007 for my previous Pioneer. At my normal listening volumes, there was no difference to me. It was only at louder volumes (volumes that I rarely hit) that I thought my Pioneer sounded "muddy" due to the internal amps not being enough, and the external amp certainly did help the dynamics. I kinda got rapped up in wanting something new, and I talked myself into an amp even though I'd rarely notice a difference. I only use my amps because I paid for them - I don't think they make a difference at the volumes that I prefer.

 

[etecnifibre]

If you can't hear a difference then sell and get something else. It's your money and they are your ears. Trust your ears and enjoy your new TV.
Mike

Thanks to both of you. My main system is pretty damn good, 63" Samsung plasma is amazing. I made the mistake of purchasing a cheap LG plasma for downstairs which is a brighter room, and would like to replace it with a good 50" LED or LCD, hopefully something around 1000-1500 bux.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've never noticed any difference either. Ever. But I'm an Audioholic............so I have my amps; what can I say?

But just beware that there will be guys out there like Solidstate who say you (we) are idiots for saying that.

Some much larger rooms and some extremely low efficient speakers may require more power. Some bigger subwoofers in bigger rooms may require more power than usual. But for the most parts, I don't think external amps will make a significant difference.

For the most part, I think saying a speaker "needs more power" is just an excuse for a poor designed speaker that just doesn't sound good period.

 

[Warpdrv]

If your pushing higher volumes on a regular basis then by all means keep the amps hooked up.... Will the receiver give you enough power for the speakers yes - and no... At higher levels the motors of the speaker drivers will be looking for that extra power to keep the drivers accurate, where the receiver amps will just not be able to deliver.

If you just don't listen to high levels with movies or music, I'm thinking that you really don't need that extra power at all and its not doing much for you.

All your speaker are very efficient and it will only take 1 watt of power from your receiver to reach 90db of loudness, then you will need double the amount of power to get another 3 db louder, and again another doubling of power to gain another 3db's of loudness and so on and so forth...

So... if you do a rough calculation with the approximate sensitivity of your speakers here are the decibel levels you will reach with the power you have on tap with the external amp... An SPL meter will tell you how loud your regular listening levels are and is a good inexpensive tool to have for your home theater.

1 watt = 90db
2 watts = 93db
4 watts = 96db
8 watts = 99db
16 watts = 102db
32 watts = 105db
64 watts = 108db
128 watts = 111db
256 watts = 114db... this is already beyond the amount of power your external amp can provide...

 

[DS-21]

At higher levels the motors of the speaker drivers will be looking for that extra power to keep the drivers accurate, where the receiver amps will just not be able to deliver.

That's contradicted by what you post below.

So... if you do a rough calculation with the approximate sensitivity of your speakers here are the decibel levels you will reach with the power you have on tap with the external amp... An SPL meter will tell you how loud your regular listening levels are and is a good inexpensive tool to have for your home theater.

1 watt = 90db
2 watts = 93db
4 watts = 96db
8 watts = 99db
16 watts = 102db
32 watts = 105db***

Given that cinema reference is 105dB peak for the main channels, and that orchestral peaks are at about the same place, what you've clearly established here is a need for 32W peak power for those speakers. The rare person who listens louder than cinema reference may need more power, yes.

Basically any AVR can do 32W peak with all channels driven! Heck, most of the little cigarillo box-sized T-amps can do that...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Given that cinema reference is 105dB peak for the main channels, and that orchestral peaks are at about the same place, what you've clearly established here is a need for 32W peak power for those speakers. The rare person who listens louder than cinema reference may need more power, yes.

Basically any AVR can do 32W peak with all channels driven! Heck, most of the little cigarillo box-sized T-amps can do that...

90dB is good for me. 100dB peak is cool. But 105dB is way too much for my taste.

 

[cpp]

I recently disconnected my ATI from my Denon 4311, I couldn't hear any difference so now it's powering my old set of Kefs, in another world of 2 chl. Plus I just can't handle loud anymore.

 

[sterling shoote]

There is a place for separate power amps, like when you have a pre/pro rather than a receiver. Another place a power amp is needed is when using a passive sub which is power hungry. My Sony TA-N80ES power amp is rated at about 560 watts/8 ohms in bridged mono operation and that's not too much power to drive my 15 inch JBL B380 sub. Previously using a 300 watt amp to power my sub clipping was common. Do you know what clipping sounds like from a sub? It sounds like a sledge hammer hitting steel, rapid fire.

 

[PENG]

That's contradicted by what you post below.



Given that cinema reference is 105dB peak for the main channels, and that orchestral peaks are at about the same place, what you've clearly established here is a need for 32W peak power for those speakers. The rare person who listens louder than cinema reference may need more power, yes.

Basically any AVR can do 32W peak with all channels driven! Heck, most of the little cigarillo box-sized T-amps can do that...

If his numbers were for 1 meter from the speakers then at 4 meters away, that 105 dB would be reduced to 93 dB with no room gain. Assuming there is a room gain of 3 dB then it would be back up to 96 dB (loud enough for me) with 32W, or 256W to get 105 dB peak.

 

[etecnifibre]

You guys went above and beyond here for me. I should note, the amps work. I can turn my receiver up all the way with no issues on the speakers, with the amps, I didn't try that. As for listening to music or watching movies, never a difference. Anyone wanna buy some amps? I'll cut you a good deal.

 

[Adam]

If his numbers were for 1 meter from the speakers then at 4 meters away, that 105 dB would be reduced to 93 dB with no room gain. Assuming there is a room gain of 3 dB then it would be back up to 96 dB (loud enough for me) with 32W, or 256W to get 105 dB peak.

You saved me some typing.

 

[DS-21]

You saved me some typing.

While I did miss that part, the 1m vs. 4m thing is irrelevant, actually. Unless we're talking outdoors, or in an anechoic chamber.

In a real listening room with reflections, one never needs as much power to reach a given SPL as the sensitivity-and-distance numbers suggest. Maybe a little more than the 1m number, sure.

I think people who still obsess about power should read this thread.

The results, while not a surprise to me, will undoubtedly open others' eyes.

 

[Adam]

While I did miss that part, the 1m vs. 4m thing is irrelevant, actually.

Ah, yes. Physics was deemed irrelevant sometime in the 90's.



J/K! I don't think it's irrelevant because sound is related to distance squared, but I agree that the power/SPL values aren't apples to apples to what someone will hear in a room.

 

[DS-21]

Ah, yes. Physics was deemed irrelevant sometime in the 90's.

Anyone remotely conversant in the physics of sound in small rooms knows that SPL at a given spot consists not of just direct sound, but also reflected sound. That's why it's not "apples to apples."

Seriously, first do the Pano test I linked to above, and then take an SPL meter one day and measure the SPL around your room. Once you do those two things, you'll have the same type of reaction I do when people spout trite idiocies about the inverse square law and actual power requirements for a home audio system.

 

[Adam]

That's why it's not "apples to apples."

That's why I agreed. I still don't think it's irrelevant, but I might read that other thread. My attention span is fairly short, though, so we'll see...

As for the power requirements of a system, I think we'd also agree that there's more to amp power than the numbers in a manual. By the numbers, your statements about SPL would indicate that my older Pioneer should have easily been able to effortlessly drive my NHTs at the volumes where I could tell that it was struggling. When I added an amp for the front two channels, it made a big difference at those louder volumes. At lower levels, the Pioneer did a great job on it's own.

 

[Ziontrain]

That's contradicted by what you post below.



Given that cinema reference is 105dB peak for the main channels, and that orchestral peaks are at about the same place, what you've clearly established here is a need for 32W peak power for those speakers. The rare person who listens louder than cinema reference may need more power, yes.

Basically any AVR can do 32W peak with all channels driven! Heck, most of the little cigarillo box-sized T-amps can do that...

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

 

[PENG]

That's why I agreed. I still don't think it's irrelevant, but I might read that other thread. My attention span is fairly short, though, so we'll see...

In my room I do sit at about 4m from my front speakers and I lost 8 to 9 dB SPL. I do not consider that irrelevant at all. Your room is going to yield a different room gain. Perhaps DS-21's room gain is much more significant than mine.

 

[Bryceo]

I have a Pioneer elite VSX-23TXH, Paradigm CC-690 and SA-35's up front, 3 SA-ADPs in the rear in a 6.1 config. Sub12. I added two of the Emotiva XPA-3, 200W 3 channel amps. I've lost one channel which is under warranty, will be fixed soon. I never really noticed a difference after I hooked the amps up, sounded the same to me as it did being driven directly from the receiver. Is there something I'm missing? I'm thinking about selling the amps and buying a new TV.

Trust your ears on this one, buy your self a new tv and enjoy it mate