* What Is The Best Sub For $300, $600, $900, $1,200, $1,500, $2,000, $3,000 & Over? *

[thebuckaman]

Danley TH-50 for the $3000 sub. Unreal subwoofer.

 

[thebuckaman]

128+db at listening position 12 feet away in a VERY open floorplan with an EP2500 and Dark Knight Blu-ray. INSANE

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Interesting Facts On the TH-50....

While the specs for the TH-50 seemed impressive on paper I was disappointed to see how it tested in real application with measurement equipment. The church where I am director of music is installing a new digital organ and we were considering using the TH-50's for the subwoofers and the organ deisgner/engineer got one in to test and the results were surprising to say the least.

Here is a communication that I got from the engineer on the testing:

"...You can see my results in the attached plot. I didn't bother calibrating the
vertical scale, so just consider it a relative measurement. What is notable
is the 18 dB variation between 50 Hz and 150 Hz. This is just too much for a
musical instrument such as an organ. The result would be extreme level
changes from note to note. I attribute this to the tapped horn concept
itself and doubt that they can improve the design much. You can also see
that the speaker starts to drop around 24 Hz and is useless below 20 Hz.

The efficiency was pretty good in its operating range, but overall I'm not
very impressed. If you're still considering one of these for use with an
organ, I would advise against it."

Granted this application is quite different from HT use....nonetheless an 18db variation in output and such a steep drop in response from 24hz and below would steer me away as there are much more flat designs available --- especially at $3k.

Here is the response measurements:

 

[bandphan]

something seems way off with the sweep. What smoothing was used? What mic? was anything calibrated? I would hold off the negative recommendation till some more research is applied. What did daleny say? seems very strange.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Bandphan,

Your questions are dead on and not ones I considered....I will certainly shoot him an e-mail and see what he has to say in regards to the gear and any smoothing used in the test. I do know that he said he liked the output and was talking with Danely to possibly come up with a design that would be more suitable for organ usage as the 24hz roll-off is not acceptable for that application and would even require alot of eq to be used in HT with flat response...

I will shoot off an e-mail to him and see what he has to say about the points you raised...

 

[Chopin_Guy]

So this is a follow up post to the measurements and statements that I made in regards to the Danely TH-50. I contacted the engineer that did the measurements and brought up the points which Bandphan made in response with concern to the measurement process and accuracy and this was his reply:

"I used audioTester (www.audiotester.de) with the
sound card in my Compaq laptop driving a Behringer EP2000 amp. The
microphone was a Behringer ECM8000 omnidirectional electret test mic that is
within about 2dB of flat from 10 Hz to 20kHz. I used a Zoom H4 as the preamp
and A/D to get the signal back into the laptop. I’ve tested this system
before and it’s very flat from well below 10Hz up to several kilohertz.

There was no smoothing used on the curve. The test was run outdoors to
minimize reflections. The mic was placed at 1m from the speaker and the
level was run pretty high – peaks were around 98 dBSPL or so. The 18 dB
swings were real and could be plainly heard.

When I mentioned this data to Danley, they said (paraphrasing) “yes, the
TH-50 does roll off at 24Hz and does have peaks, but we can do much better.
Just tell us what you want.” I have no reason to doubt them and feel they
are being straight about their speakers. It seems to me that the TH-50 was
optimized for high SPL and good efficiency. Optimizing for flatter and lower
response is certainly possible, but efficiency and SPL will suffer. For me,
the ported bass design offers a better performance mix for organs."

So, it certainly seems these were ccurate measurements...and in a less technially verbose way, was what I assumed with the TH-50 being optimized for output....with the large majority of its application being live sound reinforcement. For other applications such a design might not be so desirable....

 

[Lordoftherings]

128+db at listening position 12 feet away in a VERY open floorplan with an EP2500 and Dark Knight Blu-ray. INSANE

128+db? Are you sure you don't live in an airfield strip?

 

[ScrubbBussy]

128+db at listening position 12 feet away in a VERY open floorplan with an EP2500 and Dark Knight Blu-ray. INSANE

Your over the threshold for pain.... so good luck with that fantasty

 

[Tom Danley]

Hi Chopin guy, all

I am not sure who your friend talked to at the shop but I can clear up several errors as I am more than somewhat familiar with that cabinet.
First, your response curve is suspect, little like what I measured using a calibrated earthworks mike and TEF machine. In that curve, I measured at 1 meter like your curve.
If I can attach it when I reply it will be below. It has a 3Hz resolution and 10% smoothing.
Your curve, relative to the TDS curve which has high noise immunity, also exhibits a high degree of "noise" , sharp high frequency related features which an acoustic low pass system simply can't produce.

At the shop, they measure larger boxes at 10 meters @ 28 volts which produces a more accurate curve relative to the inverse square law when you have a large enclosure.
There, 10 meters is –20dB from 1 meter and 28volts is +20dB from 1 Watt. This gives a conservative 1W equivalent measurement.
Anyway, if you look at the data sheet curve, you can see with a different calibrated Earthworks mic and different TEF machine, the curve i took and those are very similar and not like yours.
Alternately they also use EASRA at work which measures essentially the same curves, the TEF and EASRA are industry standard measurement systems.

Also, your friend should understand in commercial sound where these are used, both a crossover and room equalization would be used.
Normally these would be crossed out at say 80Hz so if your friend wants to produce a wider spectrum, then he needs something other than a subwoofer.
So far as EQ, one does that once it is in the room as each room is different. Cutting somewhere gives you headroom and boosting looses you headroom. For example boosting 10dB at the bottom means you run out of power at 1/10 the lever of everywhere that isn’t boosted.

What also may not be appreciated is that just four of these are sufficient for a large Imax movie theater. The installer found that the four produced a flat response to 10 Hz in that “room” and was “more than enough” for the job, Batman was it's first movie.

As i cannot post a link or photo yet here so Google "pro-av under the dome"
Look at the response curve on the data sheet.

The reason they asked what did your friend need, was that we occasionally make subwoofers for special applications.
We also make standard cabinets that go lower and louder and some not as loud.

Hope this helps.
Tom Danley

 

[Warpdrv]

Hey Tom.....

This seems to be the article, I'm not seeing the response curves on this page....
http://www.proavmagazine.com/industry-news.asp?sectionID=0&articleID=926929

trying to help with the link here...

 

[Tom Danley]

Hi Warpdrive

Hey thanks for the link, I guess since it was my first post, I can’t link or attach anything yet. I was not able to attach the response curve I had wanted as well for the same reason.

That theater was a Omnimax spherical theater converted to Imax in Chicago, there are a couple more large theater conversions in the works but I am not sure where they are yet.

At the time, we did not have the TH-221 so I am hoping they can do these venues with one or two boxes. Just the size one needs in the home for true insanity haha.

Actually we are moving towards offering some kind of smaller subwoofer as a kit which will be much more suited to the task of powerful vlf in the home.
Best,
Tom Danley

 

[clouso]

the sub to beat right now according to reviews i read is paradigms signature sub25...4000$$

 

[bandphan]

the sub to beat right now according to reviews i read is paradigms signature sub25...4000$$

thank the lord for dem reviews While its a great sub, it isnt the king of the hill, or inline to the thrown

BTW have you looked at any of Toms subs?

 

[clouso]

thank the lord for dem reviews While its a great sub, it isnt the king of the hill, or inline to the thrown

BTW have you looked at any of Toms subs?

no i havent looked...where can i look at them and have more specs and details???

 

[bandphan]

no i havent looked...where can i look at them and have more specs and details???

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.html

 

[JAMS]

tactile subwoofers

Well there building some amazing ways too get sound reproduction!
A musician took a vintage church organ an used the steel ceiling supports to mount what he called motors to them,they were different speeds of course and consist of a shaft pounding on the steel supports but he didnt finnish the project on the show, but i assume he did finish unless the city code compliance division used some safety clause that applys too excessive vibration and any violation thereof a code 10-2 ,but i tell you those motors were hammering real hard!
Let the paint fly baby,this system type is outlawed by the FAA !
But clearly the ferousity and dynamic range is outrageous in scope and truly brutle in actual use!
I think the things were hydralic in nature!
Distortion would be from the church not the drivers so its a different animal really!
The {First Church of the deaf } has a nice ring too it!!!!

 

[lsiberian]

the sub to beat right now according to reviews i read is paradigms signature sub25...4000$$

On this site I think the sub to beat is the Dawg Crusher.

The LFE setup is probably Warpdrv he has 4 Maelstroms.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Extreme SUB Power.

Many people here are familiar with the top subwoofer performance list, made by sub experts. You know the one with some SVS PB13-Ultra, Epik Vanquish and Conquest, Etheral, Elemental Designs, JL Audio Fathom, Paradigm Signature Servo 15, HSU Research ULS-15 QuadDrive, Dali Euphonia AS 2, REL Stentor III and Studio III, Verity Audio Rocco ($10,495 each), Velodyne DD-1812 ($15,000 each), Westlake Audio BBSM-10SWP ($26,990/pair), plus much more...
* By the way, anyone have a link to that list; I seem to have lost mine.

But me think that the very best in the world, is actually not for sale; because it is home made, using the entire basement floor as the enclosure, and also the entire attic area as the supplement to the basement one.
As for the drivers, built systems, X-overs, vented systems, electrical wiring and connections; it's open to the imagination.
But I read about some amazing home made subwoofers, that would crack the foundations of several buildings around the peripherals or delimitations. LOL, I'm not kidding, some people go to extreme in that bass department hobby of theirs, with a true absolute determined passion, that simply defy anything that is for sale in the market. And the total power output in dbs that you can get, is truly traumatic. And the low reach extension is in just a few Hertz. I wonder sometimes, if you can die from such exposure of total comatic pressure.
I'm sure some of you guys heard about such systems.
When I found my mags that contains some of these, I will provide the links.

* But you have to remember though; Price is no object.

Or if any of you know such system to have been built by true afficionados, please, provide us with some links containing pictures and full setup.

===> And By the way, when I started this thead, and I write down '$3,000 & Over',
I meant just that, "Over", as in the sky is the limit.

Cheers,
Bob

 

[Warpdrv]

On this site I think the sub to beat is the Dawg Crusher.

The LFE setup is probably Warpdrv he has 4 Maelstroms.

heheheh thanks....

Actually I have 3 Maelstroms, and one of the same as the DAWG...

My TC-3000 is the same sub as Dawgs but mine has the Titanium cone - which is a very rare run - a collector if you will...

Its looking like I will be replacing the Mal-X's sometime in the future - not sure which direction I'm going to be headed - TC-Sounds is coming out with the 09 18" LMS's with 55mm xmax - lighter cone, better surround....

DIY Cable is also coming out with a 21" XBL/2 driver in the next month or so as well...

 

[Lordoftherings]

^ Wow! Warpdrv. You seem to have the perfect setup man.
[Anthem - Signatures - Maelstrom...]

Are you rich, or did you win the lottery by any chance?
I wish I can visit you, and listen to your main setup system.
I'll even pay for my entrance ticket.

Bob