Waffling around on a tube Amp

[highfigh]

Tube amps have higher distortion and more limited bandwidth than solid state. I had a really nice one once from Audio Research. But alas, it provided nothing I couldn't get better from solid state so it went the way of the rest of my high end equipment. Beautiful piece of electronics with a half inch thick aluminum front panel. It added some warmth (temperature) to the listening room. But a silly thing to buy. I don't recommend tube amps of any sort.

If the amp can't do better than 20-20KHz, it's not a good design- many are capable of better than that range, but they don't necessarily publish that because tubes degrade and after 20 years in the amp, people would complain. I had a Conrad Johnson and the shop that did some work on it said they checked response and said passed 20KHz, even though the spec showed showed 30-15K. It was a nice sounding amp, but it would never be called 'bright'. Being lower power, it wasn't a good model for wide dynamic range music.

I haven't been seeing a lot of glowing (no pun intended) reviews of Chinese tubes, lately but I see lots of comments from people who say they like to 'roll tubes' on a regular basis. I have never been interested in wanting to change anything unless and until necessary.

Old tubes that are called NOS (New Old Stock) are really easy to find- there's no reason to buy a foreign-made amp that uses oddball tubes that are hard to find.

 

[TLS Guy]

If the amp can't do better than 20-20KHz, it's not a good design- many are capable of better than that range, but they don't necessarily publish that because tubes degrade and after 20 years in the amp, people would complain. I had a Conrad Johnson and the shop that did some work on it said they checked response and said passed 20KHz, even though the spec showed showed 30-15K. It was a nice sounding amp, but it would never be called 'bright'. Being lower power, it wasn't a good model for wide dynamic range music.

I haven't been seeing a lot of glowing (no pun intended) reviews of Chinese tubes, lately but I see lots of comments from people who say they like to 'roll tubes' on a regular basis. I have never been interested in wanting to change anything unless and until necessary.

Old tubes that are called NOS (New Old Stock) are really easy to find- there's no reason to buy a foreign-made amp that uses oddball tubes that are hard to find.

I agree. We have to differentiate what belongs in a museum from current best practice. It is just plain silly to say that tubes represent current best practice. When it comes down to it they are exotic and very expensive tone controls. Of course they are of historic interest and importance, and if someone restores a classic to prime performance, that is one thing. Building a new design with the glitz of chrome plate is quite another. If you are going to go retro/historic , then do it properly and have something to talk about.

The biggest problem with the OPs set up I think is that his amp is greatly under powered. That little 30 watts per channel Brio is no match for those speakers.

 

[Push]

The biggest problem with the OPs set up I think is that his amp is greatly under powered. That little 30 watts per channel Brio is no match for those speakers.

Oddly enough, in my room, the Brio does a pretty good job driving the Silvers. At almost mid way on the happy dial, you can hear the speakers waking up and by 70% (about max before the Brio starts to make some noise), my small room is louder than I want.

See, I'm not really trying to solve a problem. I'm pretty happy with my setup, but when I heard the Rogue, even at low volumes, I loved the sound and the stage.

So call this curiosity. Like the time I bought a Ford. It didn't take long until I'd returned back to where I was before.....

 

[Push]

We get a lot of people looking for the best bang for the buck, so it's rare to discuss a tube amp for 5 large. That's a big investment just to experiment. I would recommend starting with the Willsenton R8 which sells for under C$2k. If you ever watch Jay Iyagi on YouTube (he's in Toronto) the Willsenton was his top amp for 2021. You can then decide whether its worth stepping up to the Rogue from there.

Yah, I'm leaning the China way more and more. My only hang up now is the R8 I would consider sunk money, as I doubt I'd be able to sell it for much if I didn't enjoy it. The Rogue I'd be able to recover most of my expenditure.

 

[Mikado463]

But the Rogue, made right here in good ole 'Pennsyltucky' !

 

[John Parks]

Yah, I'm leaning the China way more and more. My only hang up now is the R8 I would consider sunk money, as I doubt I'd be able to sell it for much if I didn't enjoy it. The Rogue I'd be able to recover most of my expenditure.

This is getting a lot of air time (video time?) over on YT:
Gallery – ThomasAndStereo (galion-audio.com)
Developed by this guy: (24) Thomas & Stereo - YouTube
$3500 for the TS120
Quick overview/rave by NRD: (24) Forget how it SOUNDS, Lets talk about this! | Galion TS120SE - YouTube

I am very interested in hybrid designs (supposedly offering the best of both worlds) and this one has really piqued my interest: Heaven 11 Audio | Billie Integrated Stereo Amplifier – Heaven 11 Audio

Quick overview/rave by Steve Huff: (24) For MUSIC LOVERS ONLY! Heaven 11 Billie MKII Integrated Amp Review! Class A Tubes + Solid State! - YouTube
For what it offers, <$2K is not a huge investment...

 

[Eppie]

Yah, I'm leaning the China way more and more. My only hang up now is the R8 I would consider sunk money, as I doubt I'd be able to sell it for much if I didn't enjoy it. The Rogue I'd be able to recover most of my expenditure.

Yes, resale value is a consideration. On average I would say that most used equipment goes for 40% of retail if in excellent condition. You should be able to do better with the Willsenton though. I've seen them listed on CanuckAudioMArt for almost C$1500 while they retail for C$1900. Higher end gear like the Rogue tends to retain it's value. BTW, have you looked at CanuckAudioMart? Here is a current listing of tube amps.

 

[TLS Guy]

Oddly enough, in my room, the Brio does a pretty good job driving the Silvers. At almost mid way on the happy dial, you can hear the speakers waking up and by 70% (about max before the Brio starts to make some noise), my small room is louder than I want.

See, I'm not really trying to solve a problem. I'm pretty happy with my setup, but when I heard the Rogue, even at low volumes, I loved the sound and the stage.

So call this curiosity. Like the time I bought a Ford. It didn't take long until I'd returned back to where I was before.....

That is what it seems. But the hearing sensitivity laws are logarithmic. So you actually need more power than you think. Every time you increase loudness by 3 db, which is about what you can detect, you double the power. If you want to make it sound twice as loud, then you need ten times the power. Now music of many types has a huge dynamic range. When amp power is limited it throttles the music. So a powerful amp really does contribute to a more realistic and open reproduction.

Before you blow money on that tube amp, see if your dealer will let you try a good solid state amp in the 150 to 250 watt per channel range. Having enough clean power with head room really does make a huge difference. Whether you realize it or not, that Brio is throttling those speakers. It was not until I started building systems with enough amp power, that I left constricted crescendos behind. So I use 9 two channel amps providing over 3000 watts of power. That is overkill, but for really realistic dynamics you want to make sure of it!

 

[Push]

I am very interested in hybrid designs (supposedly offering the best of both worlds) and this one has really piqued my interest: Heaven 11 Audio | Billie Integrated Stereo Amplifier – Heaven 11 Audio
View attachment 60271
Quick overview/rave by Steve Huff: (24) For MUSIC LOVERS ONLY! Heaven 11 Billie MKII Integrated Amp Review! Class A Tubes + Solid State! - YouTube
For what it offers, <$2K is not a huge investment...

Thanks alot for this. I'm not sure whether to be happy or ticked off that I now have another choice to filter through. Lmao. They've got a 30 day return policy and I'm really interested. Plus its Canadian made, so supporting "local" business has really got me thinking. Also half the price of the Rogue.

 

[highfigh]

This is getting a lot of air time (video time?) over on YT:
Gallery – ThomasAndStereo (galion-audio.com)
Developed by this guy: (24) Thomas & Stereo - YouTube
$3500 for the TS120
Quick overview/rave by NRD: (24) Forget how it SOUNDS, Lets talk about this! | Galion TS120SE - YouTube

I am very interested in hybrid designs (supposedly offering the best of both worlds) and this one has really piqued my interest: Heaven 11 Audio | Billie Integrated Stereo Amplifier – Heaven 11 Audio
View attachment 60271
Quick overview/rave by Steve Huff: (24) For MUSIC LOVERS ONLY! Heaven 11 Billie MKII Integrated Amp Review! Class A Tubes + Solid State! - YouTube
For what it offers, <$2K is not a huge investment...

Do the wooden knobs make it sound better?

 

[John Parks]

Do the wooden knobs make it sound better?

Yes, yes they do. One is able to tune the sound with the wood species of choice. Finding the Balck Walnut too dark? Try Larch. Wood sound too warm, cool it off with some White Marble!

 

[Mikado463]

Thanks alot for this. I'm not sure whether to be happy or ticked off that I now have another choice to filter through. Lmao. They've got a 30 day return policy and I'm really interested. Plus its Canadian made, so supporting "local" business has really got me thinking. Also half the price of the Rogue.

is it Canadian 'made' or 'designed' and produced somewhere in Asia ?

 

[John Parks]

is it Canadian 'made' or 'designed' and produced somewhere in Asia ?

From what I've been able to glean, designed and manufactured in Canada.

 

[lovinthehd]

From what I've been able to glean, designed and manufactured in Canada.
View attachment 60775

Where are ICEpower modules made?

 

[Push]

is it Canadian 'made' or 'designed' and produced somewhere in Asia ?

According to the company they are designed and built in Canada, but I've got a 20 that says there are many components inside that critter that say "Made in China", just like every other "Made in Canada" or "Made in Country X" amplifier.

What I did like was when I called to discuss the amp, you get to speak to the owner of the company, who is also one of the designers and someone who really loves his music. We had a 25 minute chat about various audio components, music in general and the weather. In this Amazon world, it's really nice to see small start ups making their way in the world.

 

[John Parks]

Where are ICEpower modules made?

They are owned by Bang & Olufsen and, from a cursory search, ICEpower is made in Soborg, Denmark

 

[lovinthehd]

They are owned by Bang & Olufsen and, from a cursory search, ICEpower is made in Soborg, Denmark

I found more a lack of specificity about origin....just that the company is HQ'd in Denmark and they engineer products there....looks to me like a company called Profusion may be the actual manufacturer and distributor.

 

[CHenry]

The Willsenton R8 is a pretty good integrated tube amp, certainly for the money. I have the "first" version which I have done some but not all of the upgrades shown on the "Skunkie Designs Electronics" YouTube series. I replaced the audio capacitors and resistors and the choke. ( I did not reroute the tube heater wiring or remove the internal mains voltage switch or place a star ground or disable the headphone jack, and the output transformers are as original.) I also upgraded the stock tubes to PSVane for the Power tubes and drivers NOS RCA in the preamp. The sound is very good, and lush in the way most people describe tube amplification. I am using mine with a pair of Studio Electric M4s which are a 2-way sealed standmount, 88dB. They perform extremely well with the R8. I have an AR i/50 in my main system (alternating with a Sugden A21SE Signature SS 30W class-A). So I can offer an opinion comparing the R8 to other similarly-powered integrated amplifiers.

The Willsenton is an excellent starting point for someone curious to try tubes without breaking the bank. The newest iteration is improved over the original (the bypass resistor protection in the bias board is added and apparently some better-quality resistors and there is an upgrade tube complement purchase option). The amp has a remote and a headphone amp, which is good and not always featured even at much higher price points. It is point-to-point wired internally in the audio section, the PCBs are limited to the sections for the control panel. The Rogue Cronus III is all PCB, so the R8 is built more like the high-end brands like Jadis.

I am by no means an all-tubes hobbyist and have and enjoy SS gear, including Class-D amps and GaN FET. Tube gear like the Willsenton R8 will give you a proper taste of that kind of equipment without exorbitant costs.

 

[CHenry]

Old thread, I know. The Heaven-11 Billie is into its MK 3 generation, now with options for an internal DAC and phono preamp and without either and a choice of class-D amp, either ICE-Power or Hypex with small power differences, the Hypex slightly more. The units are made in Canada but as others mention, the power amp modules come from Europe.

 

[TLS Guy]

Old thread, I know. The Heaven-11 Billie is into its MK 3 generation, now with options for an internal DAC and phono preamp and without either and a choice of class-D amp, either ICE-Power or Hypex with small power differences, the Hypex slightly more. The units are made in Canada but as others mention, the power amp modules come from Europe.

I'd keep waffling and not waste more money!