voltage differences

[nguyenphananh]

Hi, I have a technical question, hopefully someone can enlighten me.... I am from USA, which uses 120V 60Hz power sources. If I buy an AV or an amplifier from Japan, which uses 100V 50Hz, and import to the US:
1. WITHOUT THE POWER CONVERTER (Step up/down..etc..), will the Japanese's unit (which uses 100V-50Hz) be working properly?
2. Assumed it works, will the differences in the electrical current affect/change the sound quality, performance of the receiver/amp?
3. Will the different in electrical current affect the longevity of the unit?

4. Can I buy the power supply from the US version unit, and replace the japanse's power supply.... will that fix all the issues? or will there be more to it (tuning inside the circuitry...etc). I am aware the radio frequencies will be different, but I am not using the radio. Thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi, I have a technical question, hopefully someone can enlighten me.... I am from USA, which uses 120V 60Hz power sources. If I buy an AV or an amplifier from Japan, which uses 100V 50Hz, and import to the US:
1. WITHOUT THE POWER CONVERTER (Step up/down..etc..), will the Japanese's unit (which uses 100V-50Hz) be working properly?
2. Assumed it works, will the differences in the electrical current affect/change the sound quality, performance of the receiver/amp?
3. Will the different in electrical current affect the longevity of the unit?

4. Can I buy the power supply from the US version unit, and replace the japanse's power supply.... will that fix all the issues? or will there be more to it (tuning inside the circuitry...etc). I am aware the radio frequencies will be different, but I am not using the radio. Thanks

No you can not do that without a transformer. We often get this question. The answer is don't do it. You will come out the wrong end of the stick financially. You will likely make a mess of it, since you have to ask, and end up with blown gear.

 

[nguyenphananh]

thank you guys... let me clarify my questions.
The unit I was looking at only setup for 100V (Japan version) and 120V (US version), none adjustable. The specific amp mentioned here is a Denon PMA 600NE (or 800NE). In US, Denon only offered the unit in BLACK color (with 120V-60Hz), while in Japan and europ, Denon offered this exact unit in BLACK or SILVER (with 100V-50Hz or 230V-50Hz, respectively). I dont like black gears, and think the SILVER unit looks more "expensive". I planned to buy the Japanese's version, then replace the INTERNAL POWER UNIT with the USA's unite power supply (should be exactly the same, just different voltage). My question is that all (power supply) it takes, or is there more to it like circuitry tuning? different components? is it a plug and play (the power supply component)??
Thank you

 

[TLS Guy]

thank you guys... let me clarify my questions.
The unit I was looking at only setup for 100V (Japan version) and 120V (US version), none adjustable. The specific amp mentioned here is a Denon PMA 600NE (or 800NE). In US, Denon only offered the unit in BLACK color (with 120V-60Hz), while in Japan and europ, Denon offered this exact unit in BLACK or SILVER (with 100V-50Hz or 230V-50Hz, respectively). I dont like black gears, and think the SILVER unit looks more "expensive". I planned to buy the Japanese's version, then replace the INTERNAL POWER UNIT with the USA's unite power supply (should be exactly the same, just different voltage). My question is that all (power supply) it takes, or is there more to it like circuitry tuning? different components? is it a plug and play (the power supply component)??
Thank you

I can not answer that question without looking at the circuits. My advice is just don't do it.

If you insist then get a 120 volt to 100 volt transformer of sufficient power.

 

[nguyenphananh]

I can not answer that question without looking at the circuits. My advice is just don't do it.

If you insist then get a 120 volt to 100 volt transformer of sufficient power.

From your answers here, it looks like it will work, and the simplest way is a step up/down external transformer....
after buying a unit, I will oder a power unit from Denon and compare, maybe it just swap out plug and play...

 

[PENG]

Hi, I have a technical question, hopefully someone can enlighten me.... I am from USA, which uses 120V 60Hz power sources.

If I buy an AV or an amplifier from Japan, which uses 100V 50Hz, and import to the US:
1. WITHOUT THE POWER CONVERTER (Step up/down..etc..), will the Japanese's unit (which uses 100V-50Hz) be working properly?

Yes, technically speaking, you just have to get the right kind of plug adapter that is rated for the current, but that's my response based on "technical" to your "technical question".

2. Assumed it works, will the differences in the electrical current affect/change the sound quality, performance of the receiver/amp?

There is very little chance of that, I would say 99.99% no, it won't affect sound quality. The DC side of the power supply that the amplifier actually is powered would not change in any significantly way anyway.

3. Will the different in electrical current affect the longevity of the unit?

The difference should be very minimal, if at all. The voltage difference is, on paper, 20%, the frequency difference is also 20%, so the current difference is going to be near 0, under the same load. In fact, Denon Japan rated the amp for both 50 and 60 Hz, that indicates to me (me only) the voltage is likely rated 100-120 V to begin with (again, that's just me educated guess, you have to ask Denon).

In terms of longevity, in general, 20% higher voltage is not going to stress devices rated for 100 V, such audio devices are not going to be designed precisely for 100 V anyway, obviously. You best bet is to ask Denon.jp, if you asked Denon.com, unless you manage to bypass their first level customer support rep, you would likely be told no, don't do it etc.. If I were the design engineer, I would never design such a power supply for an audio amplifier that can only be used for 100 V 50 Hz but not 120 V 60 Hz, that would be engineering malpractice, in my opinion.

4. Can I buy the power supply from the US version unit, and replace the japanse's power supply.... will that fix all the issues? or will there be more to it (tuning inside the circuitry...etc). I am aware the radio frequencies will be different, but I am not using the radio. Thanks

You probably can, or at least be able to get the US version transformer, but if do such things you will likely void the warranty, so I would not suggest you do that.

Or you can get an external transformer to convert 120 V to 100 V.

All such efforts are most likely a waste of money and time, again, as mentioned earlier, if you look at the specifications in the manual you will see that it is rated for 60 Hz as well, that tells me the 100 V thing is also a non issue, that it likely has the same power supply but they didn't bother to specify it for 100-120 V, laziness, standardization, who knows? I can only take my own educated (as an EE) guess.

Bottom line, @TLS Guy probably just tell you what he told you because that's the safe way. No one is going to tell you otherwise, without further details/qualifying conditions etc., because if something happens, one may feel responsible, be blamed or whatever..

So, my more perhaps positive response is based on technical, theory etc., and I would have no concern if I am the user (but I am an experienced EE), but I cannot/will not tell you to just go ahead and do it, and at the minimum, I would say again, contact Denon.jp for an official answer.

From the manual:

Note that it specifies 50/60 Hz!!

 

[highfigh]

Hi, I have a technical question, hopefully someone can enlighten me.... I am from USA, which uses 120V 60Hz power sources. If I buy an AV or an amplifier from Japan, which uses 100V 50Hz, and import to the US:
1. WITHOUT THE POWER CONVERTER (Step up/down..etc..), will the Japanese's unit (which uses 100V-50Hz) be working properly?
2. Assumed it works, will the differences in the electrical current affect/change the sound quality, performance of the receiver/amp?
3. Will the different in electrical current affect the longevity of the unit?

4. Can I buy the power supply from the US version unit, and replace the japanse's power supply.... will that fix all the issues? or will there be more to it (tuning inside the circuitry...etc). I am aware the radio frequencies will be different, but I am not using the radio. Thanks

Show the rear panel of the equipment, near the power cord. Some have a switch for power supply voltage and that may indicate its suitability in the US.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, technically speaking, you just have to get the right kind of plug adapter that is rated for the current, but that's my response based on "technical" to your "technical question".



There is very little chance of that, I would say 99.99% no, it won't affect sound quality. The DC side of the power supply that the amplifier actually is powered would not change in any significantly way anyway.



The difference should be very minimal, if at all. The voltage difference is, on paper, 20%, the frequency difference is also 20%, so the current difference is going to be near 0, under the same load. In fact, Denon Japan rated the amp for both 50 and 60 Hz, that indicates to me (me only) the voltage is likely rated 100-120 V to begin with (again, that's just me educated guess, you have to ask Denon).

In terms of longevity, in general, 20% higher voltage is not going to stress devices rated for 100 V, such audio devices are not going to be designed precisely for 100 V anyway, obviously. You best bet is to ask Denon.jp, if you asked Denon.com, unless you manage to bypass their first level customer support rep, you would likely be told no, don't do it etc.. If I were the design engineer, I would never design such a power supply for an audio amplifier that can only be used for 100 V 50 Hz but not 120 V 60 Hz, that would be engineering malpractice, in my opinion.



You probably can, or at least be able to get the US version transformer, but if do such things you will likely void the warranty, so I would not suggest you do that.

Or you can get an external transformer to convert 120 V to 100 V.

All such efforts are most likely a waste of money and time, again, as mentioned earlier, if you look at the specifications in the manual you will see that it is rated for 60 Hz as well, that tells me the 100 V thing is also a non issue, that it likely has the same power supply but they didn't bother to specify it for 100-120 V, laziness, standardization, who knows? I can only take my own educated (as an EE) guess.

Bottom line, @TLS Guy probably just tell you what he told you because that's the safe way. No one is going to tell you otherwise, without further details/qualifying conditions etc., because if something happens, one may feel responsible, be blamed or whatever..

So, my more perhaps positive response is based on technical, theory etc., and I would have no concern if I am the user (but I am an experienced EE), but I cannot/will not tell you to just go ahead and do it, and at the minimum, I would say again, contact Denon.jp for an official answer.

From the manual:

Note that it specifies 50/60 Hz!!

View attachment 68993

Peng that is exactly the point. We have to stress safety. Those voltages are high. The risk of a bodge job is personally, injury, death or a house fire.

This is a public forum and we have a responsibility to stress safety. It is not only the OP who sees our advice.

We are not about to advise working on high voltage AC circuits with skills unknown.

Personally I think this is a crazy scheme just over color.

If he really must do it, then he needs an enclosed 120 to 100 volt transformer with at least a 20% over rating and even more would be better. It needs to have an AC cord to US specs, and output sockets conforming to US specs and be UL certified. Encouraging anything else is irresponsible and could bring our forum into disrepute or worse.

 

[nguyenphananh]

Thank you, Peng, and everybody. Very interesting reading and opinions. What Mr. Peng said made sense... Isurpriseded that the Japanese unit specifically labeled 100V, while the exactly model in US label 120V. I think the easiest way is to buy this unit + a step up/down converter. Down the road, I will investigat,compare the internal power supply form the jap's and America's model, if they are the same, I will replace the internal power supply. Economically it doesn't make sense, but since I keep my equipment forever... it justified....

 

[ban25]

I've imported lots of Japanese gear over the years. Unfortunately, all of the 100V-only gear I've purchased has given up in 1-2 years tops. If you want to do this, you need to buy a large transformer, and those aren't always reliable anyway (I had a Chinese-made one from Amazon go up in smoke on me once). This is serious, you could burn your house down and kill yourself and everyone who lives with you.

I don't know if the US version has a ground-plug, but the Japanese version definitely does not because they use 2-prong connectors only, with maybe a separate ground lead that you have to manually affix somewhere.

The other issue is you are buying grey-market without warranty.

If you really want the silver, you could buy both and then just swap the chassis. Or better yet, buy another amp that's silver, like a Rotel A12. Honestly, that Denon looks like cheap junk anyway.

 

[nguyenphananh]

I've imported lots of Japanese gear over the years. Unfortunately, all of the 100V-only gear I've purchased has given up in 1-2 years tops. If you want to do this, you need to buy a large transformer, and those aren't always reliable anyway (I had a Chinese-made one from Amazon go up in smoke on me once). This is serious, you could burn your house down and kill yourself and everyone who lives with you.

I don't know if the US version has a ground-plug, but the Japanese version definitely does not because they use 2-prong connectors only, with maybe a separate ground lead that you have to manually affix somewhere.

The other issue is you are buying grey-market without warranty.

If you really want the silver, you could buy both and then just swap the chassis. Or better yet, buy another amp that's silver, like a Rotel A12. Honestly, that Denon looks like cheap junk anyway.

Thanks, very interesting information.... more to think about... glad I posted my questions here...

 

[PENG]

I've imported lots of Japanese gear over the years. Unfortunately, all of the 100V-only gear I've purchased has given up in 1-2 years tops. If you want to do this, you need to buy a large transformer, and those aren't always reliable anyway (I had a Chinese-made one from Amazon go up in smoke on me once). This is serious, you could burn your house down and kill yourself and everyone who lives with you.

I don't know if the US version has a ground-plug, but the Japanese version definitely does not because they use 2-prong connectors only, with maybe a separate ground lead that you have to manually affix somewhere.

The other issue is you are buying grey-market without warranty.

If you really want the silver, you could buy both and then just swap the chassis. Or better yet, buy another amp that's silver, like a Rotel A12. Honestly, that Denon looks like cheap junk anyway.

I doubt that the US version has a 3-prong plug either, they rarely do, even the much larger units don't have 3-prong plugs. It may look like one but no ground pin.

Take a look of the 902,000 Yen, or US$6,300, 65 lbs PMA-SXI integrated amp:

No ground pin, 2 prong plug/cord only!!

and the US version $4,000 PMA-A110, no ground pin, two prong cord/plug:

PMA-600NE

It really isn't an issue, many high end audio devices don't use the grounded power scheme, but double insulated approach instead, to get the safety approvals such as UL, CSA and the European equivalents.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you, Peng, and everybody. Very interesting reading and opinions. What Mr. Peng said made sense... Isurpriseded that the Japanese unit specifically labeled 100V, while the exactly model in US label 120V. I think the easiest way is to buy this unit + a step up/down converter. Down the road, I will investigat,compare the internal power supply form the jap's and America's model, if they are the same, I will replace the internal power supply. Economically it doesn't make sense, but since I keep my equipment forever... it justified....

You won't keep a receiver for ever. You are lucky to get 10 years out of them, and the ones you are looking at five years probably max. They are not long lived devices. The other issue is that the connectivity of these units gets out of date fast. The other issue is that you are buying right at the bottom end of the market, where reliability is known to be abysmal. Just look at the Amazon reviews if you don't believe me. Yet, you are acting as if you have money to burn trying to modify a unit that is close to junk status before you start. I'm pretty sure it will be junked after you meddle with it.

Now listen up! Forget this nonsense and spend the money on a better receiver. That will be money well spent and not money down the drain.

 

[ban25]

I doubt that the US version has a 3-prong plug either, they rarely do, even the much larger units don't have 3-prong plugs. It may look like one but no ground pin.

Take a look of the 902,000 Yen, or US$6,300, 65 lbs PMA-SXI integrated amp:

No ground pin, 2 prong plug/cord only!!


View attachment 69011


and the US version $4,000 PMA-A110, no ground pin, two prong cord/plug:

View attachment 69012





PMA-600NE
View attachment 69010

It really isn't an issue, many high end audio devices don't use the grounded power scheme, but double insulated approach instead, to get the safety approvals such as UL, CSA and the European equivalents.

Good point. The SX1 is a nice amp, but at the $500 price range the OP is looking at, there are lots of local market options in the desired color scheme that don't involve buying two amps and doing surgery or burning one out after a couple years running it 20% out of spec.

 

[nguyenphananh]

You won't keep a receiver for ever. You are lucky to get 10 years out of them, and the ones you are looking at five years probably max. They are not long lived devices. The other issue is that the connectivity of these units gets out of date fast. The other issue is that you are buying right at the bottom end of the market, where reliability is known to be abysmal. Just look at the Amazon reviews if you don't believe me. Yet, you are acting as if you have money to burn trying to modify a unit that is close to junk status before you start. I'm pretty sure it will be junked after you meddle with it.

Now listen up! Forget this nonsense and spend the money on a better receiver. That will be money well spent and not money down the drain.

I tended to keep my gears for a very long time. In my bedroom, I am still using the Denon AVR3805 (silver) which came out in 2000 (that is 24 years old). It's connected to my desktop by optical cable. Im using this AVR for 2 channels music, and it is still working (and looking) beautiful. It is able to decode music up to 192kps. In the main room, I am still using the Denon AVR3311 (hooked up to 7.2) (came out in 2010) ... and don't see the need to replace/upgrade any of them anytime soon. The new PMA 600 (or 800) is a 2 channels stereo amp, which will be used in my other room, probably will last just as long.

Like I said, this direction will definitely cost me more than buying a new one locally... but it actually doesn't cost that much more, according to my research. I can get the unit from Japan (silver) for under $400 USD + around $60 shipping. If I decide to do it the hard way, the internal power supply from the Denon will cost another $160-180. If I choose to use the external converter, it will be around $60-100. Since I will keep these gears for more than 10 years, I think worth it

 

[nguyenphananh]

Good point. The SX1 is a nice amp, but at the $500 price range the OP is looking at, there are lots of local market options in the desired color scheme that don't involve buying two amps and doing surgery or burning one out after a couple years running it 20% out of spec.

from my research, within this price range, and sound quality... My choices are extremely limited! The only other choices are the Rotel A11, which costs double! The Cambridge AXA35 is about the same price, but the sound and built quality is not on the same level. Going up to Cambridge AXR85 or 100 or CX61...etc.. the price would be double or triple!. The rest other manufactures, they hated US consumers... Black or nothing!!!

 

[TLS Guy]

from my research, within this price range, and sound quality... My choices are extremely limited! The only other choices are the Rotel A11, which costs double! The Cambridge AXA35 is about the same price, but the sound and built quality is not on the same level. Going up to Cambridge AXR85 or 100 or CX61...etc.. the price would be double or triple!. The rest other manufactures, they hated US consumers... Black or nothing!!!

Why are you so fixated on the damn color? You are carrying on like some fool interior designer!

You can have lots of different colors, it doesn't matter. In fact it looks better I think. You choose equipment by one standard: - is it any good? Stop fixating on color, if you don't you will end up with gear that is no good. From the choices you listed, you are well down that road.

Lots of different colors and the more the merrier! Let me stress again, the only question that counts is: - Is it any good! What I have shown you is ALL good.

 

[lovinthehd]

from my research, within this price range, and sound quality... My choices are extremely limited! The only other choices are the Rotel A11, which costs double! The Cambridge AXA35 is about the same price, but the sound and built quality is not on the same level. Going up to Cambridge AXR85 or 100 or CX61...etc.. the price would be double or triple!. The rest other manufactures, they hated US consumers... Black or nothing!!!

If the color is so important it makes me wonder if there would be a market for faceplate "wraps" (like vehicles) to change color to silver or whatever you please? I prefer black myself, but....

 

[TLS Guy]

If the color is so important it makes me wonder if there would be a market for faceplate "wraps" (like vehicles) to change color to silver or whatever you please? I prefer black myself, but....

Now, now Lovin, stop indulging this nonsense.

 

[lovinthehd]

Now, now Lovin, stop indulging this nonsense.

Seriously, there are a lot of people who like different color choices than the ubiquitous black here in the US, see a fair number of comments about it. OTOH application would probably be a pain and end up looking even worse

ps I also just don't understand the desire to go out of my way for such an amp in the first place....