Vienna Acoustics Music

haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Helllo everyone

Is there anyone out there that has auditioned the Vienna Acoustics Music:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/vienna-acoustics’-revolutionary-driver-the-ideal-realized

http://www.viennaacoustics.at/reviews/company/VA_FACTORY_TOUR_TAS_2-08.pdf

http://viennaacoustics.at/reviews/icons/Magnolia34382_18-25_Vienna.pdf

I have on several occasions auditioned the Mahler, which is still, very expensive... but as far as I see probably the best speaker I have ever listened to, and the Music is supposedly significantly better....

Yes these are extremely expensive things, but as far as I know, Mahler is very good value, would be interesting to hear from people who have heard these :p
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Helllo everyone

Is there anyone out there that has auditioned the Vienna Acoustics Music:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/vienna-acoustics’-revolutionary-driver-the-ideal-realized

http://www.viennaacoustics.at/reviews/company/VA_FACTORY_TOUR_TAS_2-08.pdf

http://viennaacoustics.at/reviews/icons/Magnolia34382_18-25_Vienna.pdf

I have on several occasions auditioned the Mahler, which is still, very expensive... but as far as I see probably the best speaker I have ever listened to, and the Music is supposedly significantly better....

Yes these are extremely expensive things, but as far as I know, Mahler is very good value, would be interesting to hear from people who have heard these :p
I have not heard them, but the company site is very uninformative and consists largely of marketing bilge.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh no..not another GM thread in disguise? :eek: ;)

Like GM, Vienna acoustics get mentioned in all the subjective audio sites. They have a strong cult following. They do make very nice looking speakers however but I do not know what they sound like.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
All the VA speakers I've heard sounded really good, but I've not heard that many of them.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I listened to some Vienna's at a Magnolia a few years ago. They did sound good, just WAY out of my price range.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Wow, really

So it's just marketing hype.... and you never even heard any of the products.... :p
All the VA speakers I've heard are really good..... but it's of course easier to make a statement about speakers without even having listened to any of the products........
That's not the point! I just think that they could help consumer choice by being more helpful with their information. Their frequency response quotation means nothing for a start. There is not even a minimum impedance quoted.

It really is possible to publish data on a speaker now that tell you which one is worth a listen and what to strike from the list. The whole industry needs a shake up.

The bottom line is that from their website, I have no idea if that speaker is any good or not.

I have heard two sets of Vienna speakers and did not like them at all. They were very tubby.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
That's not the point! I just think that they could help consumer choice by being more helpful with their information. Their frequency response quotation means nothing for a start. There is not even a minimum impedance quoted.

It really is possible to publish data on a speaker now that tell you which one is worth a listen and what to strike from the list. The whole industry needs a shake up.

The bottom line is that from their website, I have no idea if that speaker is any good or not.

I have heard two sets of Vienna speakers and did not like them at all. They were very tubby.
Yeah, but then again, what does the specs say really?
Not sure what tubby is... for me the VA Mahler is close to the best speaker I ever listened to... but they seem to be quite different from the then next model lower in range which was then Beethoven... I found the Beethoven to have quite a sharp edge, something that was not there at all in Mahler....
(LIstened to all these using same electronics so I don't think this is due to eletronics)

I agree they could have more and better info and much more technical stuff......

Expensive yes, but for me... very very good stuff :p
 
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Patrick Butler

Patrick Butler

Junior Audioholic
Dear Haraldo,

Nothing beats the experience of listening to a product when deciding whether or not you want to buy a product. If I had a dollar for everytime that I was disappointed by a loudspeaker with great specifications or pleasantly surprised by one that didn't, I'd probably have very little money. I have played Vienna Acoustics for people who have loved them, liked them and disliked them. It comes down to personal tastes, no different than finding a girlfriend, wife or a nice restaurant.

Now if you'd like more information I can send you loads. What the information absolutely cannot tell you is whether you will love the sound of them, despite Peter Gansterer receiving a patent for a dynamic driver design, which is pretty rare these days

Great Listening,

Patrick Butler
Vienna Acoustics- North America
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Now if you'd like more information I can send you loads. What the information absolutely cannot tell you is whether you will love the sound of them, despite Peter Gansterer receiving a patent for a dynamic driver design, which is pretty rare these days
i THINK what a lot of us want is just accuracy. If a speaker can accurately reproduce a source, then it becomes much more appealing than an instantly "pleasing" speaker.

In that sense, just listening can't tell us about accuracy as much as a good combination of listening assisted by confirming measurements. I don't want to buy a speaker that sounds great during an audition but then proceeds to hide information from me because, say, it's got a 2db dip from 150hz to 1100hz - because at the end of the day I don't want to listen to the speaker, I want to listen to the music or the movie I'm watching and hear everything I'm supposed to hear clearly and precisely, not only I what may enjoy hearing.

Likewise, without an impedance measurement, I can't know if a modest amplifier can drive a speaker as its manufacturer intended it to sound. I mean, clicking "detailed information" for the Klimt series, I scroll down and see no graphs of any sort. THe closest thing to an impedance measurement is nominal impedance at 4 ohms. Okay great... is that a flat four ohms, is it a usually 5 ohms with some 4 ohm dips, or is it really a nominally 3 ohm speaker that rises to 5 ohms long enough to qualify as "4 ohm" yet and dips to 2 ohms?

I'm not told how these speakers deal with compression - can I drive this speaker to 105 dbs in a very large room without hearing any mechanical distortion whatsoever during Open Range? It may be able to thermally withstand 500 watts of dynamic power, but can it handle 500 watts RMS and the equivalent dynamic power associated with that?

I'm not told if it's even got a flat frequency response curve. 22hz - 100khz tells me nothing. Is this in an anechoic environment, or is this in a 8' x 4' washroom? A sealed bookshelf could even probably reproduce 22hz... it'll just be -36db at 22 hz... virtually inaudible. I can't go to an audition room and know for sure that what i'm hearing is "22hz" because I'm not familiar with the number "22hz", but a calibrated measurement device in half space most certainly is!

You should use speaker companies like Salk Sound and Ascend Acoustics as a reference. These companies don't rely on measurements to sell their produce, but they provide extensive measurements as a supplement such that I can feel very confident purchasing their product even blindly to know that even if it's not to my absolute preference, I'm not making a mistake, either. If i were blindly buying a speaker I'd never heard, most certainly i wouldn't think twice before choosing a Salk Soundscape 12. The design goals for that speaker were total accuracy, and the measurements support that. I may even find that virtually total accuracy isn't as pleasing as the Klimt speaker you sell... but I do know for sure that I'm getting the "full experience" without unsurity. I've lived my life long enough to know just how much pleasing speakers really hide.

Ultimately, based on your website, I really don't know what the engineering goals behind your Vienna Acoustics Klimt series are - and without knowing that I can't just listen to a product and expect it to do justice to my source material! Your goals may very much be to sell beautiful cabinets to people who walk into a store with a wad of cash...and with these goals the "listen" approach will certainly sell speakers. But it won't give those people the full experience, just the parts of it that sound best. On the other hand your goals may in fact be to produce the most accurate audio possible. But your website doesn't make that clear because an engineer confident in his work will share the information necessary to support it.

One of the reasons I like the reviews on this website is that they tell me 3 things

1) That a manufacturer is confident in how his/her product sounds.
2) That a manufacturer is confident in how his/her product measures, as the reviewers here put things through possibly rather rigourous and detailed testing.
3) That a manufacturer is condifent in how his/her product is priced, often being pitted against less expensive or comparable reference speakrs as opposed to a case of "yeah, it's good for the homeless price of 4000/pr, although the Revel Ultima 2 Salon is better and I own one :cool:".

Very rarely do I see negative reviews on this website. That's a function of the above 3 things, not a function of positive review mantra. Poor lexicon got owned though.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Dear Haraldo,

Nothing beats the experience of listening to a product when deciding whether or not you want to buy a product. If I had a dollar for everytime that I was disappointed by a loudspeaker with great specifications or pleasantly surprised by one that didn't, I'd probably have very little money. I have played Vienna Acoustics for people who have loved them, liked them and disliked them. It comes down to personal tastes, no different than finding a girlfriend, wife or a nice restaurant.

Now if you'd like more information I can send you loads. What the information absolutely cannot tell you is whether you will love the sound of them, despite Peter Gansterer receiving a patent for a dynamic driver design, which is pretty rare these days

Great Listening,

Patrick Butler
Vienna Acoustics- North America
Since you are in the industry and represent a speaker manufacturer, I'm going to "take the gloves off" with you.

Loudspeaker design is not haute cuisine! Taste is just an excuse for manufacturers to indulge in anything goes. Apart from speaker design, cooking is another of my hobbies, but I can assure I know the difference.

Taste in loudspeakers is just giving the customer the choice of what vile evils he chooses to live with.

Now I admit I have a very low opinion of the vast majority of loudspeaker manufacturers, but I think with good reason.

I have auditioned many speakers from a variety of manufacturers and switched between models. The result a totally different spectral difference and sound between models. I then turn to sales man and ask : - "Which one is correct?"

Now in this day and age that is absolutely inexcusable. Long ago I developed consistency in design. If you play any of my speakers designed over the last 20 years you won't find a chasm in the spectral balance between any of them. That is also true of a few distinguished manufacturers. It is also true that the differences between the offerings of the best manufacturers are not as great as the difference between models of poor ones.

Now when I go to your website, I see very little information that is useful or pertinent. It all looks kike ignorant marketing bilge.

Now I will tell you flat out I have never heard a speaker that had a poor mid band frequency response and poor waterfall plot I could live with.

Now speaker manufacturers need to publish at a minimum.

A well recorded frequency plot.

An impulse plot.

A waterfall plot.

An impedance curve.

The phase angles of voltage and current with frequency.

You should also give consideration to Kieth Howard's loudspeaker torture index.

I field a lot of legitimate questions from members on this forum. Often I'm unable to give a definitive answer because of the paucity of information on websites like yours.

Now why is consistency in performance of loudspeakers important?

Well whether you like to hear it or not listening studies have repeatedly shown a panel of listeners tend to favor speaker with good on and off axis frequency response and superior waterfall plots. So my assertion that claims of taste are bogus is based on evidence. So your argument carries zero weight with me and should not with any person able to parse the evidence, which is considerable.

The BBC have been obsessed with consistency of monitor speakers for fifty years. A large part of their research budget for over years has been devoted to speaker problems. Why? Because they know the rear end of the chain (speakers) is as important as the front end (microphones). Unfortunately speaker present many more knotty problems.

However they have produced a huge body of knowledge and speaker engineers who have been associated with the BBC have produced some of the best designs, and most consistent designs extdnt.

I have hear a few of your speaker, and honestly I have to rate them in the dreadful category. I really don't want to hear from you on matters of taste, which are irrelevant in the design of of world class speakers.,
 
Patrick Butler

Patrick Butler

Junior Audioholic
Dear TLS Guy,

I appreciate you taking your gloves off and for being completely honest on the internet. Thank you!

I think that people listen to music because they love the pleasure that comes from the experience. I also believe that when people find a stereo system that they really love, it can positively impact their life and help them to experience life more fully.

Parsing your language, it sounds like what you are looking for is certainty that you are absolutely making the right choice by relying on metrics that have nothing to do with why the vast majority of the speaker buying public makes a purchase. Other people are quite happy to hear a variety of loudspeakers and choose one based on their personal preference with certainty that they can make the right decision based on what brings them pleasure. However, it is your belief that-

"Taste in loudspeakers is just giving the customer the choice of what vile evils he chooses to live with."

Gotta say, when I read that people are choosing to live with "vile evil" because they make different decisions than you I have to wonder what is behind your motivation to give people advice on this forum.

I've read the same studies from Floyd Toole, the BBC, Genelec etc. My claim that "claims of tastes" is relevant is based on the shear number of loudspeaker companies that continue to stay in business despite having different design goals and measurements. Some people love planars, some prefer single driver designs and you prefer to roll your own. Some people hear wonderful designs from Revel and love them, others are completely turned off. All of these decisions are based on personal taste, and while all of the aforementioned studies are extremely useful in advancing the art of loudspeaker design, they no not explain why their findings break down outside of the control room. And since we are talking about science, conjecture about why is merely that- conjecture

The critical difference between your opinion and mine (and I do value your opinion) is that mine values the choices that people make based on differing tastes while your's demeans people for making "vile choices" different from your own.

Good Listening,

Patrick Butler
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The slogan for this site is "Pursuing the Truth in Audio and Video". I believe that many of us consider truth in audio to be accurate reproduction.

Accurate reproduction is pretty specific and speakers which add their own flavor (to use your taste metaphor) are inaccurate - and to someone as passionate about audio as TLS Guy, this inaccuracy represents "vile evil" (if I may speak for him).

You are in the business of selling speakers. Whether those sales are accomplished by cultivating a marketable image or accurate sound is reasonably inferred from the tact your website takes in presenting your products.

People who have as a reference, their car stereo, clock radio, MP3 player, etc. are readily wowed by a real audio system that compares favorably to these sources.
We have to look no further than Bose (another company which prefers not to publish useful specifications) to establish that what is marketable need not correlate with sound quality. You may argue that their customers are buying a sound they like. I must agree, but I will argue that with greater experience listening to live music and accurate speakers, they are likely to regret that decision.
 
Patrick Butler

Patrick Butler

Junior Audioholic
Hi KEW,

Great response. Thank you.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote that many consider truth in audio to be accurate sound reproduction as opposed to most or even all. In my experience in retail or distribution you learn quickly that one persons truth is another person's dislike. This is why you can sit two experienced listeners who value "accurate " sound at an audio show, and have one really dig a system and the other person sitting right next to him have the exact opposite experience. Take those same two people traveling together and send them to the next room and the one who loved room A dislikes room B and the one who dislikes A loves B.

Now it would be tempting to take the position of TLS guy, which is that one room must be correct and the other wrong and by extension of that, one person must be settling for vile evil while the other reaches for truth. This is a very simplistic way of the world and one that actually cones about from seeking certainty instead of truth.

I think the entire notion of an accurate loudspeaker is a fallacy if your goal is to enjoy listening to music. This does not mean that good engineering and innovation have no role, it's just that for every designer who claims to have an accurate loudspeaker and can back them up with a host of measurements, there is another designer making the same claim but went a out tackling the problem by different means. Which one is correct when people sit in front of both designs and choose differently? The answer is that they are both correct for different people.

A common standard in assessing accuracy is to hear the same thing as the recording engineer. Great idea until you go to Sterling Sound or Gateway Mastering and realize that the engineers use different loudspeakers that sound different (both accurate mind you) in different rooms. Further, one mixes for the studio, one for the car. I think you see the problem here. Because different speakers sound different and because great engineers listen and have different tastes, unless you have the same system as a particular engineer you are never going to accurately reproduce the sound of his mix. Assuming you have this system, other recordings from other engineers are not going to be accurate.

Regarding using live music as a reference, the last 3 of 4 live concerts I have heard sounded like **** because the monitors sucked and the guy at the board was incompetent. Reading a blog recently on RMAF I actually read a reviewers post complaining about the sound of a live piano being played in a hotel lobby, and how he preferred a recorded version on his system. Pretty complicated.

I di think that it is a worthy goal to get people who love music in front of awesome sounding systems and open their eyes to what performance can do for their enjoyment of music.



Good Listening,

Patrick Butler
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I think the entire notion of an accurate loudspeaker is a fallacy if your goal is to enjoy listening to music. This does not mean that good engineering and innovation have no role, it's just that for every designer who claims to have an accurate loudspeaker and can back them up with a host of measurements, there is another designer making the same claim but went a out tackling the problem by different means.
I have read, re-read, and re-read yet again these sentences. Can you elaborate what you are saying. Any attempt I make at interpreting them comes off as being facetious.

Thanks.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
In my experience in retail or distribution you learn quickly that one persons truth is another person's dislike. This is why you can sit two experienced listeners who value "accurate " sound at an audio show, and have one really dig a system and the other person sitting right next to him have the exact opposite experience. Take those same two people traveling together and send them to the next room and the one who loved room A dislikes room B and the one who dislikes A loves B.
1) Just because they value accurate sound, does this mean they're truly familiar with it? Again you use listening tests as the standard, but while a human ear can be a great transducer, the human mind isn't quite so capable... especially if both of these people consider their own speakers as a reference, rather than their experience with the sound of unamplified live performance
2) And measurements could help us determine why this is the case. A person sitting right next to another person may be sitting at perfectly the right listening location for an accurate sound.

Now it would be tempting to take the position of TLS guy, which is that one room must be correct and the other wrong and by extension of that, one person must be settling for vile evil while the other reaches for truth. This is a very simplistic way of the world and one that actually cones about from seeking certainty instead of truth.
There's no absolutely accurate speaker as far as I know, but there's certainly many designed to strive for that standard and come very, very close. If two speakers of this sort sound like night and day between each other, there's obviously some kind of coloration at work - so yes - one room should be more correct. Unless both speakers color the sound equally and oppositely... in which case neither is correct and this is truly the case with many manufacturer's offerings. If neither is correct, then various measurements will reveal in what cpaacity this is so.

I think the entire notion of an accurate loudspeaker is a fallacy if your goal is to enjoy listening to music. This does not mean that good engineering and innovation have no role, it's just that for every designer who claims to have an accurate loudspeaker and can back them up with a host of measurements, there is another designer making the same claim but went a out tackling the problem by different means. Which one is correct when people sit in front of both designs and choose differently? The answer is that they are both correct for different people.
Yes. The issue here however is that if both are in fact correct, the differences between them should be minute and lie moreso in psychoacoustic phenomenon rather than purely acoustic factors. Otherwise, if the differences are purely acoustic factors (IE the instantly perceivable colorations which can affect a speaker sale or impression) then clearly one, or both of the speakers is doing something less than perfectly. And detailed, high resolution, accurate measurements can reveal what this is far more easily than the human ear can.

A common standard in assessing accuracy is to hear the same thing as the recording engineer. Great idea until you go to Sterling Sound or Gateway Mastering and realize that the engineers use different loudspeakers that sound different (both accurate mind you) in different rooms. Further, one mixes for the studio, one for the car. I think you see the problem here. Because different speakers sound different and because great engineers listen and have different tastes, unless you have the same system as a particular engineer you are never going to accurately reproduce the sound of his mix. Assuming you have this system, other recordings from other engineers are not going to be accurate.

Regarding using live music as a reference, the last 3 of 4 live concerts I have heard sounded like **** because the monitors sucked and the guy at the board was incompetent. Reading a blog recently on RMAF I actually read a reviewers post complaining about the sound of a live piano being played in a hotel lobby, and how he preferred a recorded version on his system. Pretty complicated.
*Unamplified live music as a reference, not an amplified concert. Just like what a microphone is experiencing during a recording.

You're right in that there's no such thing as a perfect speaker. We're not talking about a perfect speaker, though. We're talking about finding a speaker that's DESIGNED to strive for accuracy.

Using opposite design goals as a reference - no one in their right mind would sit down and listen to a Klipsch speaker and claim that it's designed for accuracy. It's designed to impress with hyped highs and loud lows, at the expense of possibly 65% of the music picture.

The collective issue here with your marketing schemes is that you seem to be going for that Klipsch goal. I'd much rather listen to a boring studio monitor that does as little as possible to the music as it's able to, having been designed to do so.

Now regarding that all Studio engineers mix in their own way with their own equipment - most certainly. Does that mean that I should find the cheapest radio shack boom box in order to hear it as that studio engineer mixing for the car may have intended?

Most certainly not. I like to believe that the differences in well done studio mixes are more well done than that. Experienced studio engineers are usually very familiar with both the sound of live audio as well as the inherent minute colorations of their own gear - they literally live with this stuff. There's poorly mixed music out there, yes. but that's an uncontrollable variable. The only variable I can control, really, is the reproduction gear I've got. If it's going to reproduce a bad mix really well, so be it - if it's going to reproduce a great mix equally as well. It may lessen my enjoyment of that bad mix, but c'est la vie. I refuse to "compensate" for that.

To me, a great speaker should be able to do the following:

In a large, relatively treated (not anechoic by any means, but reasonably echo-free) environment, reproduce an unaltered recording without hiding or hyping any particular part of that recording.
 
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haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I have probably auditioned just about every speaker brand available in the market here and so many different models..... but there is one of them standing out above all the others....

After listening to a range of Vienna Acoustics products I have nothing but the greatest admiration to Peter Gangsterer, he obviously do have a very clear strategy and follows this from model to model. The Music must be a clear proof of this, it's not a model he just makes.... I believe he's spent more than 5... or even 10 years getting to where he is now.....

I have nothing to do in any way with Vienna Acoustics, and I have no reason to say the following other than because I adore his former top of the line product:
Peter Gangsterer is a genious when it comes to loudspeaker design.......

To me.... The Mahler is nothing but a pure Masterpice.... The Mahler is without dynamic limitation, simply uncolored, no sound of its own, just provides you the music the way it should be.... every Mahler is measured according to a reference and even every speaker is A/B tested towards the original Mahler "master" speakers. VA does tis for every speaker getting out of the productin line in Vienna...... The attention to detail put into the production process is to me... second to none.... VA The only factory I can think of that's at the same level is Vandersteen and former Dunlavy Audio.... there are probably more of them out there....

Specs and measurement cannot prove a speaker to be good, but poor measurements can prove a speaker to be bad....

Patrick, as a representant of VA, can you please tell Peter not to discontinue Mahler, because I heard rumors about this happening, it's just to good product......
 
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dkane360

dkane360

Audioholic Field Marshall
Using opposite design goals as a reference - no one in their right mind would sit down and listen to a Klipsch speaker and claim that it's designed for accuracy. It's designed to impress with hyped highs and loud lows, at the expense of possibly 65% of the music picture.
65% of the music picture? Care to explain where you got that stat? What does that even mean? And 33Hz-24KHz ± 3dB is no slouch of a speaker, nor as inaccurate as you seem to think it is (RF-82II). I understand that that spec isn't the whole picture, but that is one of the first things people look for on speaker stats. There seems to be a lot of preconceived notions floating around here.
 
B

Boerd

Full Audioholic
Helllo everyone

Is there anyone out there that has auditioned the Vienna Acoustics Music:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/vienna-acoustics’-revolutionary-driver-the-ideal-realized

http://www.viennaacoustics.at/reviews/company/VA_FACTORY_TOUR_TAS_2-08.pdf

http://viennaacoustics.at/reviews/icons/Magnolia34382_18-25_Vienna.pdf

I have on several occasions auditioned the Mahler, which is still, very expensive... but as far as I see probably the best speaker I have ever listened to, and the Music is supposedly significantly better....

Yes these are extremely expensive things, but as far as I know, Mahler is very good value, would be interesting to hear from people who have heard these :p
I used to own the VA Beethoven - read my review (signature) for more info.
The quality is stellar - everything from cabinetry to drivers and internal wiring.
Never listened to the Music speaker though (loved the Mahler) ...
 
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