Video Upconvert

[Leprkon]

For the past few months, BMXTRIX and I have had a few friendly sparring sessions on these posts about the value of video upconverting in a home theatre receiver. I generally don't like it while he generally approves.

I don't know him, but from his posts, he is either an audio installer or has a lot of friends who trade him pizza and beer for stereo work (and if you have questions on how to do it, his posts are a very valuable source for info). It turns out that he is completely right on video upconverting. Apparently there are a number of newer receivers with true Faroudja or other processors that actively do something to the incoming video signals to make them better.

Unfortunately, there are a larger number of newer receivers who claim to "upconvert" when all they do is switch the signal from one set of connectors to the other.

If you take a burrito and put it on a pizza pan, it is still a burrito. Such a process might help a wife or babysitter to use only one button to change source audio and video, but has little other value (here's hoping the wife likes burritos)...

A couple of examples include the Sony STR-DA995 and Yamaha RX-Z2500. Both will happily put your burrito on a pizza pan for you, but neither will turn it into a pizza. Yet the specifications for both clearly state the "upcovert" the signal.

The signal has been "converted", yes, but certainly not "upped".

The Yammy main website dances around the subject. Nowhere on the site can you find any mention of a 480 picture changing to 720 or better,yet the literature specifically mentions upconversion as a feature. I had to send their FAQ department a direct question on the issue o get a straight answer of "no change in picture quality".

Please, in the future, Audioholics reviews should explain whether or not a receiver will actually "upconvert" and what the conversion quality changes are, rather than simply stating "yes" the supplier claims upconversion.

As a final note... did the "upconversion" change my mind about ordering the Yammy.. well no, but then I always run video straight to the TV, switch two buttons instead of one, and deal with whatever burritos come out...

But we shouldn't let the supplier mislead anyone who might actually EXPECT to convert things... like BMX...


_________________________________________
Frodo was a failure, not a hero

 

[crashguy]

Oh, I see...

Now I see the reason for the Bah Humbug....

I agree they should call it video conversion, not up conversion. Now, lets try to get the gamma digital connector phase coined....

 

[Duffinator]

Now that we have resolved that issue...

You're right, the manufacturers should call it someting else. But does "conversion" have value? I think so. It really does two things that previous receivers did not.

1. It simplifies connections between the receiver and monitor.

2. It makes it much easier for people to switch video inputs.

Now if you are not switching component video through your receiver then #1 and #2 become irrelevant. And if you are not then it's really not an issue. But there are many people on this forum that are.

Like most HDTV's mine has two component inputs. So if you have HD, DVD, and PS2 like me having the third component input can be very important. It was the deciding factor in my decision to purchase the Denon 3805 over the Yamaha 2400. My original intention was to switch just the DVD and PS2 through the receiver. But after realizing how convient it was to use the receiver as the video switcher I now run my HD through it as well. I've had a capable universal remote with macros for years. My wife and I are both competent at switching the audio through the receiver and video through the TV. But it's so much easier to use the receiver, with IMO no loss in picture quality, why not use this feature?

...now if we can get the manufacturers to display the OSD while watching a component input I'd be even happier!

 

[icngacsn]

Upconverting or Up-scaling Receiver Needed

Can someone (Leprkon or BMXTRIX maybe) recommend an "upconverting" or is the term "up-scaling" receiver, or better still provide a list? So far I have found the HK AVR 7300, the Denon 3805 and the Yamaha RX-Z9 AV only do conversion (though one review said the Yamaha did upscaling of DVDs to 720/1080 only if the disc was not copy protected - not much use to me).

My issue is that I have a Sharp Aquos LCD TV that constantly screws up when I change channels from 480 to HD on my cable box (it displays static at 480 instead of HD at 1080) and I need to re-set the TV (power cycle or change inputs) to make it display HD. I know, you are saying "get it fixed" but I've had little luck with Sharp on that subject... so I thought I'd give up and solve the problem a different way. I want to use 1080/720 for all inputs (DVD, SAT & Cable), and would also like the OSD to work on all inputs...

Any suggestions?

icngacsn

 

[nibhaz]

I view all up scaling or up conversion as a total scam....seriously have you over up converted a MP3 to a wave file or have you ever used the digital zoom on a digital camera....can a mathematical algorithm always make something that was poor to begin with better...or would it be better to just us hi res to begin with? Seriously...new tech does not always mean better?

 

[icngacsn]

nibhaz - I realize this is a sensitive topic in this forum, but if you read my post I have a very specific requirement - my TV screws up when switching between 480 and 720/1080 images - so I want to always use HD.

I really couldn't give a *&%$ if it is superior or not, because for me, avoiding having to power cycle my TV every time I change channels from 480 to HDTV (and avoiding another call to Sharp) is an enormous improvement, and one I will pay dearly for!

 

[jbracing24]

True, a lot of people would conclude that upconversion means to take something standard and make it into a thing of beauty, like standard def video and make it into true HD, eyepoping scenes with conversions techniques. Na! It has to come from the original source to really knock the socks off. But upconversion, like in the Denon 2805 takes my S video signals and component video and sends them all out of the same component output to one TV input, I love it. So, which one is truly "upconversion"?
To say that all new tech is not necessarily good or improved...I upgraded from DPL 1 (Technics) to DPL 2x (Denon) and recently I viewed my first DD ES, DVD. One is upconverted sound techniques, the other, encoded upconversion. Now, which one is truly the "upconversion"?

 

[jbracing24]

nibhaz -
for me, avoiding having to power cycle my TV every time I change channels from 480 to HDTV

Let's just say that you purchase a receiver that can send video (upconversion) from various sources without changing TV inputs, are you sure that the TV won't react the same way? This feature on my Denon 2805 is great. I hope it can solve your problem, whatever you finally decide to buy.

 

[icngacsn]

Thanks jbracing24 but the Denon 2805 only converts S-Video to component (a cool feature so that you can have a single connection between receiver and TV) but does not up-scale the image to 720/1080, which is what I need...

I went to to Denon to check, and saw the 5805 will do what I need... I also found the Samsung AV-R3000 will upscale, but both are >$5k and the Samsung is not available yet. I wanted to pay around $2k (I can get a new TV for $5k which will also solve the problem.)

 

[BMXTRIX]

Okay, not sure how many posts happenned with my name in them without me responding.

I have been on the high end side of things as a Crestron programmer for about half a dozen years now and because it is not just high-end, but is consistently VERY high end, I have had the chance to review some fun toys.... err.. work with some serious products.

Every fixed pixel display: IE, plasma, LCD, lcos, dlp, etc., etc. has a certain number of pixels. Let's say it is 1280 pixels wide by 720 pixels tall. If you feed that display a 480i signal, then the 480i is converted to 1280 x 720. This already occurs inside of every fixed pixel display on the market.

There is a lot of math and algorythms that the video signal runs through to take it from 480i to 1280x720 - and they need to happen instantaneously to keep in synch with the audio (doesn't always happen that way though).

The ability for the processor inside your $1,500.00 LCD or $6,000.00 plasma to convert different video formats to the native rate of the display is a part of what you are paying into. The better displays use better processors which utilize thousands of hours of design/engineering/testing work to change video from one format to another while (most of all!) preserving quality.

Is there any doubt, or question that one company is better than another? I have put my hands on products from DVDO and Faroudja and have flipped the settings when hooked up to a Sim2, Runco, and other projectors as well as plasma displays and even more typical CRT rear projection TVs and have seen what happens when image correction filters are turned on.

In about 80% of the tests, the image was improved. Not ONE test showed the image to look worse! It wasn't scientific testing, but was informal product review and analysis for whether our store chain might pick up the product.

Would I go for one integrated into an A/V receiver? Meh, only if I were looking at really nice ($$$) A/V receivers and had the money to spend. On a budget I would likely get a Denon AVR-2805 and hook it to a DVDO if I wanted to reach a nice price point or I would just use the scaler that is already inside of my display.

The food reference is good - I would say that the burrito reference is especially good... You see, if you put a burrito on a plate, it's just a burrito. If you put it on fine china (component) and decorate it with garnishes, it's STILL just a burrito. But, if you give it to a chef and he adds some spices and sausces and dressing, it is a much different flavor burrito than before and it will truly taste better to most people. It will be a better burrito - to most people. Not all people though, some won't like the added flavor and some may not be able to tolerate it at all. That would be a good reference for video scalers which most TVs will appreciate and provide a better image with. Some, a very few, won't.