Velodyne Digital Drive Plus 18 (DD18+) Subwoofer Review

[gene]

So much crying about money. Why can't anyone just let products (whether it is speakers, cars, watches, whatever) stand for themselves and forget the price tag? Maybe not everyone can afford them, but who cares? Let them be what they are whether they're affordable or not. Why would I buy a rolex when a timex from walmart works better?

Because it's always people that can't afford the products that always do the complaining. When I get back in the office Doinyz will get a nice banning. Please don't feed the troll .

 

[its phillip]

Search for C2.pdf on Epik Subwoofer site - you will find the measurements there.

You can see for yourself - reproduces frequencies below 20Hz without going to infinite distortion like the Velodyne.

Velodyne is completely unsuitable for Home Theater use with its inifinite distortion levels. It doe look like it is a very good sub for music however.

If the reviewers gave Velodyne a high rating for music only and stated that it is not realy suitable for Home Theater use due to going to infinite distortion below 20 Hz, then we would be in 100% agreement.

I just find it sad that the reviewers would try to hide and not point out the obvious shortcomings to potential consumers, just because they got paid to review this sub.

This is the quickest way to loose one's credibility

How about you just give people a direct link instead of having them search for it?

http://epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

Anyway, those are in room (a corner, even) measurements. Very different from Ricci's measurements, and NOWHERE near as thorough. Regardless, the Conquest is a very capable unit - it's also discontinued, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

 

[farrow099]

"Forget the price tag"... [insert background] Economy tanking, people living on the streets kicked off the streets so they go in to the sewers, people's kids starving so they steal your $5k sub and sell it to a pawn shop, methane plumes billowing and our planet burning. [/insert background]

Honestly guys, product(s) of the year for us poor folk would just be a nice thing to do!

 

[Hocky]

"Forget the price tag"... <insert background> Economy tanking, people living on the streets kicked off the streets so they go in to the sewers, people's kids starving so they steal your $5k sub and sell it to a pawn shop, methane plumes billowing and our planet burning </insert background>

Who cares? This is a fun luxury product. This is nothing that ANYONE needs to own (along with any subwoofer at any price point, for that matter). Ramen noodle dinners aren't going to increase in price 10 fold because there is a subwoofer that is expensive. Enjoy it for what it is. Or don't. Either way, look at the product, not the price tag. It is all about fun and nothing more. Economic problems are only relevant to the company trying to sell them and obviously they don't think it is an issue or they wouldn't be pushing the product to market.

 

[farrow099]

Who cares? This is a fun luxury product. This is nothing that ANYONE needs to own (along with any subwoofer at any price point, for that matter). Ramen noodle dinners aren't going to increase in price 10 fold because there is a subwoofer that is expensive. Enjoy it for what it is. Or don't. Either way, look at the product, not the price tag. It is all about fun and nothing more. Economic problems are only relevant to the company trying to sell them and obviously they don't think it is an issue or they wouldn't be pushing the product to market.

You've made my point for me... Products like this are fun to look at but not many people can actually afford them. Hence my recommendation of product of the year classes so people can get an idea of what offers the best performance within a given budget.

 

[Hocky]

Isn't that what all of the various shootouts are for?

 

[farrow099]

Isn't that what all of the various shootouts are for?

Kind of, but the shootouts are generally between similarly priced products are they not? It would be rather unfair for a shootout to be between a $1000 sub and a $5000 sub...

What I'm suggesting would be more like the tom's hardware pc builder marathons. They show the best product (or PC in this case) you can get in a given price range.

They actually have brand new ones on their homepage right now if you'd like to see what I am referring to: Tom's Hardware: Hardware News, Tests and Reviews

Many sites do the same thing with various types of products now.

 

[gene]

How about you just give people a direct link instead of having them search for it?

http://epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

Anyway, those are in room (a corner, even) measurements. Very different from Ricci's measurements, and NOWHERE near as thorough. Regardless, the Conquest is a very capable unit - it's also discontinued, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

Oh boy Tom Nousaine measurements are taken in his living room without factoring out room gain. I hired him to write a review for us and couldn't publish it giving the inaccuracies of his measurements. This is why its important to understand test conditions when trying to compare measurements between products and reviewers.

 

[farrow099]

I'm done with this, this will be my final post in this thread.

If AudioHolics feels they've reached the pinnacle of their trade and no longer need to try anything different then so be it. It's a suggestion, not a demand.

 

[detroit1]

performance versus price DOES matter; most of these retail products are way over priced; those are for the suckers that don't do research on what other brands are making for less money
as it was already mentioned here, the Epik, HSU, SVS, etc all make a comparable product for way less money ! period
what logical reason is the to by the velodyne for that price when you can get the same or maybe even better level of sound for less ?
and I have seen the look on peoples faces when they overpaid for a sub and then heard one of the lower prices subs; they felt like crap and know they made mistake. period
Velodyne subs are nice subs but once you know about these other brands there is no point in buying it
none of these products costs that much to make; Eminence in Kentucky actually makes the woofers for many brands in the Industry and people would be shocked to hear how low the prices are for the woofers they make
I just had a used car sales guy tell me last week that he sells Wilson Audio subs and they use "Proprietary " materials and that sub is 21K
what a bargain ! what Proprietary materials are they using? this is laughable

 

[Hocky]

performance versus price DOES matter; most of these retail products are way over priced; those are for the suckers that don't do research on what other brands are making for less money
as it was already mentioned here, the Epik, HSU, SVS, etc all make a comparable product for way less money ! period

It only matters if you want it to matter. Do those companies make better subs for less money? Maybe, maybe not. And it probably really depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I'd rather spend my money with an established brand that isn't going to be gone next week/month/year where I know that I can get excellent dealer and manufacturer support, even if that means I have to spend more.

 

[Irvrobinson]

In all honesty, for that amount of cash you could purchase dual TC Sounds LMS Ultra 18"s, dual crown xls 2500 amps, have boxes CNC cut at a local shop, and still have money left over to buy a new receiver with in room sub correction! If DIY isn't your thing the SVS Ultra and Rythmik subs are both badass subwoofers for wayyy less money.

Sometimes unit cost isn't the most important factor. The DD18+, for me, is a complete solution that does everything I want in a single package, has very high build quality, and I could see it and test it before I bought it. Yes, I probably paid about $500 more for performance than I would have from internet direct sources (I didn't pay MSRP), but even the internet direct products that tempted me (like the Funky Waves 18.3) still had risks, like the fact I had to buy something weighing about 200lbs sight unseen, and I assign a monetary value to that.

There's also another factor for a buyer like me. I had listened to a lot of subwoofers in high-quality music systems over a period of about four years. I hadn't found one that really blended in unless the low-pass filter was set pretty low, like 40Hz, which doesn't really mitigate the bass problems in most rooms, certainly not mine. For example, I listened to JL Audio 212s a few times, and no matter how the bass management was set, they sounded great for home theater use, but for music I was never impressed. Solo grand piano uncovers all weakness in the 60-500Hz range. They are certainly powerful, though.

When I first demo'd the DD15+ with B&W 802Ds at a local dealer I wasn't impressed. The dealer was running the 802Ds full-range, and the bass was over-blown and muddy. I asked the sales guy to change the set-up using the high-pass filter at 80Hz, the low-pass filter was at 60Hz, and we used no contour or equalization. The result astonished me. I've heard 802Ds several times, and they are very good speakers, but their somewhat hot high-end is not my taste. In combination with the DD15+ they were transformed. I didn't care if I was paying $500 or even $1000 more than some elusive cost-optimized solution, I ordered a DD18+ on the spot. The dealer delivered it and helped me set it up. There was an implicit "I'm happy or they take it back" mentality for the transaction. I've been completely addicted to my system ever since. Subjectively, the DD18+ is the most cost-effective improvement I've ever made.

There's more to value than just parts cost, at least to me.

 

[shadyJ]

There is actually quite a bit of content below 20Hz and the amount of content is increasing every day as that is where the impact that theater and HT enthusiast are looking for.

Even for music lovers there is content below 20Hz - some of the classical music with organs has tones below 20Hz, as well as some techno & hip/hop music.
The issue is, that if you have never heard/felt undistorted content below 20Hz you do not know what you are missing.
I myself had no appreciation for this undistorted low frequency sound until I got the Conquest (I had a dual 12" sub previously and have heard Velodyne 15" DD)

Again, I do believe that "sophisticated" Velodyne is very good for Music above 20Hz.
However, don't kid yourself about the lack of content below 20Hz, as it is quite significant, and it is "exactly" this content that give you that realistic sensation of being there (as reproduced by old brutes)

And if you do not have a way to keep old brutes out of site in your home theater, then you do not have a home theater but in reality have a media room.

I could easily make a list of all the movies that have strong 20 hz or less content, that would be what, 20 or 30 movies? And most of them are movies like Transformers 2- does that movie really warrant a huge sub?

As for music, outside of the very occasional organ recording, and novelty tracks like "bass I love you", this just isn't any musical content down that low, period. And why should there be, historically most recording studios did not have playback equipment that could achieve those frequencies. It is also a very common practice among sound engineers to just run the recordings through a 20 hz HPF before they even start mixing, because deep bass east up the dynamics so quickly.

And yes, I have heard sub 20 hz infrasonic bass, my own theater does it very well. It's a neat trick, but I realize now that it just isn't very important. It takes a lot of effort to achieve, but in the end it really is just a gimmick. Bass is important, but bass you can't hear isn't. Any sound systems I setup for myself in the future will not have sub 20 hz bass as a priority.

Also, if hidden subs is what it takes to have a home theater, I guess almost all of us here just have media rooms and not home theaters.

 

[pbc]

Brent's CEA test results are all over the map as can be seen with his DD15+ measurements that not only exceeded mine of the same sub, but even josh's measurements of the DD18+!

The same issue was noted via his measurements of the SVS pb12nsd.

No kidding.

 

[pbc]

As for price points, it's pretty clear the PB13 is an amazing performer, outperforming the Velo in many respects. I don't need AH to provide me with a breakdown of subs by price point to know that.

One interesting thing is that Josh mentioned reviewing the Paradigm Sub2 and I'd imagine given the weather he's already done the measurements and the review is being, well, reviewed.

So if the DD18+ has already been given "subwoofer of the year", I guess it outperformed the Sub2?

Unless the Sub2 review isn't scheduled to be released until 2012 and it becomes a 2012 product?

I'm really looking forward to seeing those results as well. Another product I'll never see in my house, but hey ... Actually, I guess the older DD18 was in my family room many many moons ago, it just wasn't mine... In case people are wondering about size differences between it and the PB13 (can't recall if the new DD18 is different in size vs the old).

 

[gene]

The Paradigm sub2 review will not be completed or published till 2012. Thus it will be a candidate for the 2012 award. I'm quite certain if it wins, some keyboard commando will point out for the same price one could purchase 8 Epik subwoofers though

 

[pbc]

Or, possibly, 100 or so of these ...

For only $78.30 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 12 Inch 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer - Light Wood Finish | Subwoofers

 

[billy p]

As for price points, it's pretty clear the PB13 is an amazing performer, outperforming the Velo in many respects. I don't need AH to provide me with a breakdown of subs by price point to know that.

One interesting thing is that Josh mentioned reviewing the Paradigm Sub2 and I'd imagine given the weather he's already done the measurements and the review is being, well, reviewed.

So if the DD18+ has already been given "subwoofer of the year", I guess it outperformed the Sub2?

Unless the Sub2 review isn't scheduled to be released until 2012 and it becomes a 2012 product?

I'm really looking forward to seeing those results as well. Another product I'll never see in my house, but hey ... Actually, I guess the older DD18 was in my family room many many moons ago, it just wasn't mine... In case people are wondering about size differences between it and the PB13 (can't recall if the new DD18 is different in size vs the old).

Hi Steve what is the sub to the left of your pb13u? Btw...I know that rack was replaced with one of your dual opposed av15's so you ain't doing so bad in the sub department...

 

[Ricci]

Wow...People really get bent out of shape over subwoofers.

 

[zhimbo]

I just find it sad that the reviewers would try to hide and not point out the obvious shortcomings to potential consumers, just because they got paid to review this sub.

This is the quickest way to loose one's credibility

Maybe I shouldn't be dragging this back to the surface, but I can't help but be amused by someone pouring over all of the information in the review and citing it to support their negative view of the sub...and then accuse the reviewers of "hiding" the information.

If it's so darn hidden, how did THEY find it?

Sheesh. It's a sign of a good review that enough information is presented for people to form their own views independent of the reviewer.