Velo DD15, Did I Break It?

Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Well I was playing some music loudly last week, at about 90% as loud as I would dare take it when all of a sudden I could hear a difference in the music. Immediately I turned right down, however everything sounded fine again. Fearing that I damaged something in my speakers I turned off the sub and played some more music, gradually increasing the volume while intently scrutinizing what I was hearing. The paradigms were in excellent working order much to my relief.

Previously I had always assumed the Studio's were at greater risk of damage when playing my music really loudly then my Velo, and so I never considered checking the sub. Still concerned that it was my speakers I played music/tv/games quietly for a couple of days, and finally I thought I was in the clear. Well today I turned on some music again to about 80% when I heard a pop. The music didnt seem to change any, and this time I knew it was the sub. So I turned it down a bit and put my head next to the sub, hoping I could discern what the issue was. It then proceeded to make some more clunking noises during bass intensive segments so I turned it off and came here.

So what do you guys think? Did I just destroy a couple grand?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
So what do you guys think? Did I just destroy a couple grand?
Let's hope not. I'm thinking that if you are lucky it will be a part in the amp as opposed to the driver. I'm guessing that would be a cheaper fix. The obvious question about warranty comes up and then your location might help someone direct you to a decent repair shop.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I'm dissapointed with subwoofers in general. They use wimpified amplifiers anymore, you may have popped a cap. The unit may function, but only partially. Woofer popping and other noise could be associated with the capacitor malfunctioning. If the cap ever burns all the way up you will cease to hear sound. This is only pure speculation, but it's possible. But if it's a cap, it's likely an easy and inexpensive repair.:)

Infinity Kappa perfect build and Behringer EP2500 should fix all our subwoofer woes.:D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well I was playing some music loudly last week, at about 90% as loud as I would dare take it when all of a sudden I could hear a difference in the music. Immediately I turned right down, however everything sounded fine again. Fearing that I damaged something in my speakers I turned off the sub and played some more music, gradually increasing the volume while intently scrutinizing what I was hearing. The paradigms were in excellent working order much to my relief.

Previously I had always assumed the Studio's were at greater risk of damage when playing my music really loudly then my Velo, and so I never considered checking the sub. Still concerned that it was my speakers I played music/tv/games quietly for a couple of days, and finally I thought I was in the clear. Well today I turned on some music again to about 80% when I heard a pop. The music didnt seem to change any, and this time I knew it was the sub. So I turned it down a bit and put my head next to the sub, hoping I could discern what the issue was. It then proceeded to make some more clunking noises during bass intensive segments so I turned it off and came here.

So what do you guys think? Did I just destroy a couple grand?
That is a sealed sub, with servo feedback. It is much more complicated than most subs.

I have a hunch that the accelerometer has come off the woofer and got damaged. I suspect in any event, that the feedback circuit is not working now, and that driver excursion is excessive. I would not use it further.

This is not going to be a unit the average repair shop will understand.

I would contact Velodyne. Unfortunately, I suspect you will have to return the whole unit to them. This is not a sub were you can test the electronics and the driver separately, they are both intimately connected via the accelerometer servo circuit.

The good news is that Velodyne a renowned for good after sales service.

This type of servo sub is not designed for bashing out rock music at high continuous spl.

Sealed subs have roll off at 12 db per octave at a much higher point than a ported sub, which roll of at 24 db per octave. Also the cone has to radiate all of the sound.

To produce deep bass a sealed sub has to be equalized. This requires much more power delivered to the sub driver as frequency decreases. This increase cone excursion and heat dissipated in the voice coil. With a servo sub, the servo circuit will massively increase power to maintain flat response.

Now a sub like the servo, can produce excellent deep bass and have a very flat response with a nice low total Q. The Velodyne servo line have refined tastes, and are NOT a high spl rock machine.

Ported subs are also destroyed by high spl if a sub sonic filter is not used. In a ported sub the driver cone completely and rapidly off loads from the box below F3 and there is then nothing to retrain cone excursion and so the driver can be easily damaged.

The sub, as you have found out, is the most easily damaged part of the system at high spl. To produce high spl in the last octave if a formidable challenge and very expensive.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Thanks TLS Guy. Well it sounds like this will take awhile to fix. Ill need to dig up my warranty as well. Its a shame, I really enjoy the servo, though I was ignorant to the fact that high SPL is so much harder on them.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks TLS Guy. Well it sounds like this will take awhile to fix. Ill need to dig up my warranty as well. Its a shame, I really enjoy the servo, though I was ignorant to the fact that high SPL is so much harder on them.
Yes it is a pity. However I think it calls attention to the fact that may be it is time to review the causes of speaker destruction. So I going to take the liberty of your speaker failure as a teaching opportunity.

The first point that I would make is that every mechanical and electrical device has a point of destruction.

There is an old adage that is as follows: - "Do speakers have to be large?" No but it helps!" To which I would add, it helps an awful lot!

So what's the deal?

Well there is a direct inverse relationship to driver sensitivity, and therefore efficiency, and LF extension This becomes particularly acute as enclosure size is reduced.

As has been stated often, for every 3db reduction in sensitivity, the power required to produce the same spl has to double. That means twice the heat liberated in the voice coil.

Now a small sealed sub will have an over all sensitivity in the low 80s. However it is worse than that, as the sub will start rolling off 12 db per octave somewhere between 40 and 50 Hz. In order to be a useful sub, a boost of 12 db per octave has to be applied to give response to the low forties. So say a sealed sub is down 3db at 44 Hz without Eq, and that would be good performance, then to be 3 db down at 22Hz, we have to apply four times the power to the driver at 22 Hz than at 44 Hz, and that means four times the heat.

Also in a sealed sub the driver's rear radiation is lost. There is no port output.

Because of the powers involved distortion is high, and this is where the servo helps.

Now sealed subs can be built with a very narrow resonance, low Q. So that can produce a non resonant sounding bass.

A ported sub will have much higher sensitivity and efficiency and produce higher spl with less heat stress on the driver. However the bass by the very definition of ported principle is resonant. By careful design this can be tamed but not eliminated. However taming it also reduces bass spl. The other problem is that below box resonance the driver quickly decouples from the box and is easily damaged due to excessive cone excursion.

Now loudspeakers are destroyed by thermal damage (heat), and signals that cause the driver to exceed its mechanical limits.

Mid range drivers and tweeters are pretty much only disturbed by thermal damage.

So how can damage be minimized? Well first of all by avoiding playing systems really loud. If they are small speakers then being really moderate with volume.

Choosing speakers with higher, rather than lower, sensitivity, that generally involves choosing larger speakers over smaller ones. Remembering that if you have a design where a lot of Eq is required, being especially cautious.

Choosing systems where the power is spread between multiple voice coils. This is a good reason to use multiple subs.

Use infrasonic filters that have a steep roll off with ported subs.

In choosing speakers that have mid range drivers MTM has an advantage, as there are two drivers rather than one.

One can not leave this issue without a discussion of program, which plays a huge role in speaker destruction.

First of all rock/pop. This music is to a large extent produced electronically and so significant energy can be placed in pass bands where acoustic instruments do not have significant energy. This plays a big role in tweeter burn out.

High spl. levels can be maintained longer, because there is no limitation of human effort.

This genre of music is often highly compressed. If it is played loud, then the drivers get no chance to cool off, significantly increasing the risk of thermal damage.

In classical music, with the exception of the pipe organ, prolonged high spl is limited by the physical effort required from the players.

This limits the risk of thermal burnout. This music is not usually compressed significantly in digital format. The big risk is woofer mechanical damage from things like sudden forceful bass drum strikes. The sudden bass drum strike in Uranus, in Holst's planets suite, has spelled death to many a woofer voice coil former.

The pipe organ, can and does, destroy any and all types of drivers.

The instrument is not dependent on the physical effort of the performer, a point frequently made by J.S. Bach. So there can be sufficient energy in the range of all drivers in a speaker system and cause thermal damage to all of them.

It might be of interest to know how I approach this as a designer.

First of all, I'm not selling anything, which is hugely liberating. This allows me to work with the laws of physics and not fight them.



First of all I prefer to use multiple voice coils. All things being equal, I would choose two ten inchers over a 15 incher. Now this bass system has four voice coils to spread the load over. A TL design was used, with a Qt of 0.5, so the bass is non resonant, with 12 db per octave roll off. Now Eq is required to reach the last octave.

Efficiency is 93 db 2.83 volts 1 meter. So I only need one third of the amp power than a system with 84 db sensitivity for the same spl. I'm using a total of 400 watts on the front bass system which would be the same thing as using 1200 watts if the system was only 84 db sensitivity.

Not only that, I chose drivers with a powerful motor systems, and the amps can only power them to 2/3 of their rated continuous power. It so happens the drivers have metal cones, and that helps get the heat away from the voice coils quickly minimizing thermal compression and damage.

In fact the bass amps barely ever get more than slightly warm. Yet in big explosions a shock wave is produced that you feel by being hit hard in the chest with it. All this is done with minimal effort, with the cones barely moving, and very large air movement from the large area ports.

The mid range also uses two drivers per speaker, with big motor systems and metal cones, minimizing the chance of thermal damage and thermal compression.

I mention this, because speakers are relatively simple to understand.

I see many members with the technical skills to build fine home theaters. With a little study, they could produce systems that did not push against the laws of physics too. If the builder and designer of the space is also the speaker designer, even very large structures can come to fit in the space aesthetically with a little planning.

Really a home theater is really a tinkerer's perfect play ground, and with a little study and experiment systems produced that can put off the shelf systems to shame no matter what they cost.

That is why I'm a constant advocate of DIY systems.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Thanks agan TLS Guy for taking the time to write and educate here.

I've been away for a while with work so I wasn't able to do anything with my sub, however I sent of an email to Velodyne and got a response back from David Santos (who was really quick to respond, and is quite helpful it seems).

Bear in mind, I suspect I underplayed the condition of my sub so I suspect he wrote back a polite response back to me. I've also have had this sub in the same location for several months and have played the music quite loudly on a number of occassions without any disturbances being noted.

Here is what David sent to me however:

Sean, If I had to take a guess I'd say it sounds like you're overdriving the sub.Although this is a servo controlled subwoofer it does have it's limits, anddespite it all there is a commom misconception that servo means that theycannot be overdriven and they will protect themselves from doing so. That issimply NOT the case. So let's go back to basics, first of all what volume level do you have thesub set to? A typical volume for a DD Series sub is anywhere from 6-18, ifyou're anywhere above that I'd suggest you lower the volume on the sub andincrease the LFE output from the receiver.When was the last time you calibrated the speakers & subwoofer? In acalibrated home theater ALL of the speakers & the subwoofer should becalibrated to an output level of 75dBc using a sound pressure meter orsimilar measuring device. I realize doing so may lead one to believe thereis a lack of bass in the room but the truth is most systems are calibratedwith the sub a minimum of 5-7 dB higher than the norm and as such peoplebecome fully comfortable with all of the excess in that area.As it seems like you're only hearing this "distressed" sound during peakpassages I would think there's a good chance that the sub is simply reachingit's maximum output or running out of headroom and lowering the volume maycorrect this from happening in the future. Regards, David J. SantosCustomer Service Mgr.Velodyne Acoustics, Inc.
First off, I made a mistake. I've been using my Velodyne DD15 sub with a volume level of anywhere from 50 to 35. Never have I ever been lower then 35, and I suspect that is a major factor in what has happened here now. Ironically, I've read all the material in the Velodyne pamphlet and no where was there mention that a typical and safe range was from 6 to 18, but thank you David for shedding light on this.

Further, since I moved to this new location in Oct of 2008 I have not calibrated my system. I lack an SPL meter, and my local ratshack doesn't sell them. I haven't even bothered to do the automatic calibrations through MCACC on my Pioneer receiver, or hook up the supplied Mic with the Velodyne unit to check out where I was getting suckouts, etc. Dumb move I know, and now I'm paying for it.

So now I've gone into Velodyne's DD system settings and I'm making some necessary changes. First things first, I've reduced the Velo's volume to 18. Now I've hooked up the mic, and let it go through its paces to figure out where I'm getting dropouts in the frequency band. I've gotten it as linear as I can get it without doing any extreme adjustments.

The Low Pass Xover freq is set for 110
Low Pass Xover Slope is set to 30
Subsonic freq is set for 15
Subsonic Slope 24
Phase at 00
Polarity +
Volume 18

Now I'm going to conduct a listening test with a CD I'm very familiar with, and feel is of fairly good quality (not a whole lot of compression). Audioslave's Out of Exile.

Interesting side note, at -15db on my receiver, the DD pics up the SPL at around 83 (thats at the volume setting of 18 on the sub). I can only imagine the kind and amount of strain I put on this system when I ran the system at 0db (loudest I'll play the system) when the Velodyne used to be set for a volume of 45.


Alright, so on track 3 (Be Yourself), I slowly increased the volume closely watching the sub and listening. When I hit -10db with the receiver I saw and heard a difference. I visually saw the cone excurssion reach out to its maximum and there accompanied a popping sound.

Just to confirm where my SPL was at when I reached -10db on the receiver, I went back into the DD system and raised the volume to -10db on the receiver. The frequency band from 50 to 63 rated the highest at around 87db from my listening location, approximately 7.5 feet from the sub.

Interestingly, anything below -10db on my receiver and the sub for all intesive purposes appears to sound and perform normally. I know I'm going to have to go send this in to get fixed, but I don't suppose anyone has any other interesting feedback or ideas on whats wrong with this?
 
N

ninja12

Junior Audioholic
All I can say is this sounds bad....:(
I agree. This does sound bad. I have a DD 18, and my listening room is 4000cf. I have never had my volume over 10. At a volume of 10, it shakes the entire house, and I have it located in my basement. However, since I have properly calibrated everything, I have my volume set to 5, and it sounds and blends very nicely with my mains. I believe if I were to ever turn my volume up to 45, it would literally crack the foundation of my house. Just think, the DD 18 volume goes from 1 to 99. I will never need another sub in my life time.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks agan TLS Guy for taking the time to write and educate here.

I've been away for a while with work so I wasn't able to do anything with my sub, however I sent of an email to Velodyne and got a response back from David Santos (who was really quick to respond, and is quite helpful it seems).

Bear in mind, I suspect I underplayed the condition of my sub so I suspect he wrote back a polite response back to me. I've also have had this sub in the same location for several months and have played the music quite loudly on a number of occassions without any disturbances being noted.

Here is what David sent to me however:



First off, I made a mistake. I've been using my Velodyne DD15 sub with a volume level of anywhere from 50 to 35. Never have I ever been lower then 35, and I suspect that is a major factor in what has happened here now. Ironically, I've read all the material in the Velodyne pamphlet and no where was there mention that a typical and safe range was from 6 to 18, but thank you David for shedding light on this.

Further, since I moved to this new location in Oct of 2008 I have not calibrated my system. I lack an SPL meter, and my local ratshack doesn't sell them. I haven't even bothered to do the automatic calibrations through MCACC on my Pioneer receiver, or hook up the supplied Mic with the Velodyne unit to check out where I was getting suckouts, etc. Dumb move I know, and now I'm paying for it.

So now I've gone into Velodyne's DD system settings and I'm making some necessary changes. First things first, I've reduced the Velo's volume to 18. Now I've hooked up the mic, and let it go through its paces to figure out where I'm getting dropouts in the frequency band. I've gotten it as linear as I can get it without doing any extreme adjustments.

The Low Pass Xover freq is set for 110
Low Pass Xover Slope is set to 30
Subsonic freq is set for 15
Subsonic Slope 24
Phase at 00
Polarity +
Volume 18

Now I'm going to conduct a listening test with a CD I'm very familiar with, and feel is of fairly good quality (not a whole lot of compression). Audioslave's Out of Exile.

Interesting side note, at -15db on my receiver, the DD pics up the SPL at around 83 (thats at the volume setting of 18 on the sub). I can only imagine the kind and amount of strain I put on this system when I ran the system at 0db (loudest I'll play the system) when the Velodyne used to be set for a volume of 45.


Alright, so on track 3 (Be Yourself), I slowly increased the volume closely watching the sub and listening. When I hit -10db with the receiver I saw and heard a difference. I visually saw the cone excurssion reach out to its maximum and there accompanied a popping sound.

Just to confirm where my SPL was at when I reached -10db on the receiver, I went back into the DD system and raised the volume to -10db on the receiver. The frequency band from 50 to 63 rated the highest at around 87db from my listening location, approximately 7.5 feet from the sub.

Interestingly, anything below -10db on my receiver and the sub for all intesive purposes appears to sound and perform normally. I know I'm going to have to go send this in to get fixed, but I don't suppose anyone has any other interesting feedback or ideas on whats wrong with this?
I think the servo system and or the voice coil are likely damaged.
 
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