Vandersteen to Paradigm Signatures: Subwoofer or not for 90% music/ 10% movies??

[sydney]

I know next to nothing about subwoofers, so your opinions please...

Home-remodeling forces me to give up my beloved coffin-sized Vandersteen 3A sigs for something more elegant looking. I've settled on Paradigm Signature series as my replacement - both the S6 and S8 models sound fantastic.

My dilemna:

Unlike the Vandersteens they're replacing, these speakers will have to do double-duty: 90% music, 10% movies. Plus, they will be doing this in a room that is much larger (18' x 35' w/ 10' ceilings and a half-wall midway dividing the kitchen from family room). Given the priority given to music, this will remain a 2-channel system (no center channel, no side speakers).

Understanding that movies often have very loud explosions and deep deep bass sound effects, would it be preferable to get the S6's with a Paradigm Seismic-12 subwoofer, or the S8's (which have two add'l bass driver units) with no subwoofer?? Price-wise, they net out to about the same. If the S6/sub combo is apt to do a better job with movies, I'm okay to go that route, but if the advantage is negligible, I prefer the simplicity of the S8's with no sub.

Thoughts??

 

[codexp3]

I'd get the the S6s and a JL f113. I'm running the S8s with the f113, but I cross over at 80hzs so I really should have went with the S6s. The JL sub will give way more punch than the S8s alone, plus the sealed enclosure is great for music.

 

[GlocksRock]

I would say definitely get a sub, I think a SVS PB13 Ultra would fill the bill nicely.

 

[fredk]

Go to a Paradigm dealer and listen to your chosen speakers both with and without the sub for the material you think you might want a sub for (movies I presume) and decide for yourself. Just make sure the dealer takes the time to set the sub up properly.

Fred

 

[AVRat]

Yes even for music, the S6/sub combo really adds another dimension. In a room that size, the Seismic 12 isn't enough. Something like the SVS Ultra-13 or dual AV123 MFW-15s would be more appropriate.

 

[Warpdrv]

There are a number of excellent choices that you could go for in subwoofers... Did you have a budget for a sub...?

If your 90% music, a really good quality sealed sub is an excellent choice, otherwise I would say if if you go ported, the Ultra13 is one of the best for music and movies....

Paradigm Servo .v2 or Paradigm Signature Servo, same as the servo in SQ but a much nicer looking cabinet, as well as a much higher price tag.
Jl Audio F113 or maybe a couple of F112's in that size room. (These are incredible for music)
SVS Ultra13 (fantastic choice for music and movies)
Velodyne DD series subs are very good quality as well...

I wouldn't run either the S6's or the S8's without a sub personally, and in that large of a room neither of those speakers will be able to produce the impactful bass IMO one should have.

I have the S4's with a F112, and for music its incredible... Movies its very good, but I like a really good ported sub for that really low hard hitting stuff they are putting in movie soundtracks these days. The room I have that setup in is almost 1/4 your size room, so the F112 is more then enough.
My great room is about the size of yours and I have Twin SVS PB12-Plus/2's, and they add more bass then I need, but they are nowhere near as articulate as the JL subs. To get that articulation I would replace those 2 subs with Ultra13's is I weren't doing a DIY, equal to those.

 

[sydney]

Thank you all for your well considered opinions!

Just to add a bit more detail/ clarification. The primary goal of my getting a subwoofer is to avoid damaging my S6's (or S8's) when watching movies (which is only occasionally). My thought is by crossing the very deep and loud bass over to the sub, I'l avoid subjecting the S6/8's to 110 db explosions and the like - something for which they probably were not intended. As for the kind/size of subwoofer, I'm not looking for theater-like bass, just something that will do a respectable job (and better than the S's on their own). When playing music, I'm more than please with the S's performance (particularly the 8's) Indeed, in my auditioning I found the bass to have both great extenstion and definition. While increasing the extension when listening to music with a Sub would be nice, I wouldn't want to do it if I then create problems with integration. Hence, I may end up leaving the sub off when listening to music.

And as for the room, although it is 35' in length, the sofa will actually be only about 12 feet from the TV and speakers. ..Behind the sofa is a 4' wall, then behind that is the kitchen (all totaling around 35' in length).

Also, I do not have a processor pre-amp. Rather, I have a simple 2-channel preamp (Bryston BP-25) and a Bryston 3BSST 2-channel amp. ..How would I connect the sub? Nearly all the subs that have been recommended to me (here and elsewhere) seem to be intended to connect to a digital processor. ..Forgive my ignorance.

As for budget for sub, my total budget tops out at about $6,500. ..So if I went for the S6's, that would leave about $1,500 for the sub. ..If I go w/ the S8's - well, no $$ for the sub

sydney

 

[chadnliz]

I wish you well in your new speaker purchase but in a year or less your gonna regret the Paradigm and wish you had the Vandersteen...just a prediction.

 

[TheFactor]

I wish you well in your new speaker purchase but in a year or less your gonna regret the Paradigm and wish you had the Vandersteen...just a prediction.

Just curious but what are your reasons for your oppinion .

 

[codexp3]

I wish you well in your new speaker purchase but in a year or less your gonna regret the Paradigm and wish you had the Vandersteen...just a prediction.

I doubt it. The Signatures have never left me wanting more, even next to 20k+ speakers. If you like them now, wait until you get them home and have the chance to listen to all of your favorite material. WOW! In your price range there's no excuse for a pair of speakers to have even a single deficiency. The 'digms won't let you down.

 

[Warpdrv]

Hey now.... The Vandersteens are super speakers, so don't be dissin them...

I have heard the 3A's and the 5As, and aside from the looks of them they are incredible sounding speakers, I would have no problem with them being the source of my music and movies... They aren't as pretty as the Paradigm Sigs but they certainly have it where it counts for sound reproduction...


The Paradigm Sigs are really fantastic though or I wouldn't have bought them, in fact when I replace my Studio's it will more then likely be with the next release of the Sigs... .v3 I hope they come up with more veneer choices in the next release...

I hope you enjoy your Sigs for years to come sydney`

 

[sydney]

I wish you well in your new speaker purchase but in a year or less your gonna regret the Paradigm and wish you had the Vandersteen...just a prediction.

I'm not worried. I did indeed love my Vandersteens and find that they and the Paradigm's have a similar sound - very smooth, excellent micro-dynamics, etc. But the Paradigms have one key advantage: they can play much louder w/out sounding stressed or strained. ..I spent a considerable amount of time listening to the S's, so I'm sure I'll be satisfied.

I'm not putting you in this camp, but I do think that Paradigm, to some degree, is a victim of it's own success in that "elite" 2-channel audiophiles look down their noses at them b/c they are widely available, have been around for years, and have a products that start at "every man" prices. The put-down they often use is, "they're fine for home-theater", or that they're "bright". I don't get this - at least not from the Paradigm speakers I've heard. To me, their success allows them to invest more in R&D than the small audiophile -approved - "two guys in a tool shed with stethoscopes" type operation. Another important consideration is whether or not they'll be around in 5-7 years. Vandersteen has stood the test of time, and so must any other speaker company I'd consider buying. Too many small companies (sadly) go under leaving their owners without a place to go for parts, service, guidance, etc..

 

[jamie2112]

I really like the sound of all the Paradigms that I have had the pleasure of hearing. I might be crazy but I think the Paradigm line sounds alot like many in the B&W line. I have listened to both companies speakers, A lot of them and I would say you will be happy with the Paradigms for years to come. Good company and very good speakers.

 

[codexp3]

Hey now.... The Vandersteens are super speakers, so don't be dissin them...

I have heard the 3A's and the 5As, and aside from the looks of them they are incredible sounding speakers, I would have no problem with them being the source of my music and movies... They aren't as pretty as the Paradigm Sigs but they certainly have it where it counts for sound reproduction...


The Paradigm Sigs are really fantastic though or I wouldn't have bought them, in fact when I replace my Studio's it will more then likely be with the next release of the Sigs... .v3 I hope they come up with more veneer choices in the next release...

I hope you enjoy your Sigs for years to come sydney`

What the heck are you looking for besides Cherry, Maple, or Piano? Redwood, Mimosa, Wattieza (last one died off 385 million years ago)?

 

[chadnliz]

I'm not worried. I did indeed love my Vandersteens and find that they and the Paradigm's have a similar sound - very smooth, excellent micro-dynamics, etc. But the Paradigms have one key advantage: they can play much louder w/out sounding stressed or strained. ..I spent a considerable amount of time listening to the S's, so I'm sure I'll be satisfied.

I'm not putting you in this camp, but I do think that Paradigm, to some degree, is a victim of it's own success in that "elite" 2-channel audiophiles look down their noses at them b/c they are widely available, have been around for years, and have a products that start at "every man" prices. The put-down they often use is, "they're fine for home-theater", or that they're "bright". I don't get this - at least not from the Paradigm speakers I've heard. To me, their success allows them to invest more in R&D than the small audiophile -approved - "two guys in a tool shed with stethoscopes" type operation. Another important consideration is whether or not they'll be around in 5-7 years. Vandersteen has stood the test of time, and so must any other speaker company I'd consider buying. Too many small companies (sadly) go under leaving their owners without a place to go for parts, service, guidance, etc..

Its ok I dont mind, I just think the Vandersteen is more refined and less fatigueing in the long run plus its minimal baffle and first order crossover and time phase performance is a more correct approach to me. When you say I may or may not bash Paradigm for the list of reasons given the exact same could be said for Vandersteen (been around forever, have everyman price and are widely available so I dont think thats it.) What I do think is "it" is we all have opinions and prefrences and I do wish you luck I am mearly suggesting you may come back home to Mrs Vandersteen after your affair with Paradigm .(thats a joke)

 

[TheFactor]

Once you go Digm you never go back even in time , hey im a poet and didnt even know it . Seriously its all a matter of taste to a degree but wow my STUDIOS which are down a level or so from the sigs leave me so satisfied its unreal. After listening to some relaxing jazz I can never wipe the smile off my face, but I must say I've never heard or seen vandersteens so cant comment on those. I guess thats whats so cool is there so many awesome speakers aren't there at a reasonable price it can satisfy the most demanding and bias ears .

 

[Warpdrv]

What the heck are you looking for besides Cherry, Maple, or Piano? Redwood, Mimosa, Wattieza (last one died off 385 million years ago)?

Sorry, I guess I just like to have more optons available for decor...
Every tom, richard, and harry decorates with the same wood colors options available, how about something more unique. Paradigm has established itself as a high end speaker company with the Signature line, and even the Studio's, but they have strayed away from giving the customer more options.

I understand that the removed the Rosewood from their lineup because it was much harder to get matching color throughout the runs of production, and mass production for them has generated larger numbers and more accurate figures of what sells the most, so they cut out the worst seller.

Its just unfortunate... Check out Aerial Acoustics page, click on the 20T's and scroll down to the bottom, wouldn't it be cool to be able get something like that eh....

 

[sydney]

make no mistake, Vandersteens are wonderful speakers. ..I've loved owning them these past 5 years. ..If it weren't for increasing my space and my need for something prettier, I'd be keeping the 3A sigs.

One downside is their looks, which is something that up until now has not been an issue. They're very wide, tall, and they lack any degree of aesthetic. The other downside, in my opinion, is that they tend to lack a bit of the dynamic range that are found in non-1st order designs (I may be mistaken in blaming this part of their design for this trait). The only other 1st order design I've owned were Spica TC-50's which shared this trait (when compared with other 2-ways).

The Paradigm S8's (and 6's) are the first conventional speaker I've listened to that shares the Vandersteens smoothness, detail, natural/ accurate timbre while also being able to play at far greater volumes - something which will be important in this larger space.

 

[sydney]

Sorry, I guess I just like to have more optons available for decor...
Every tom, richard, and harry decorates with the same wood colors options available, how about something more unique. Paradigm has established itself as a high end speaker company with the Signature line, and even the Studio's, but they have strayed away from giving the customer more options.

I understand that the removed the Rosewood from their lineup because it was much harder to get matching color throughout the runs of production, and mass production for them has generated larger numbers and more accurate figures of what sells the most, so they cut out the worst seller.

Its just unfortunate... Check out Aerial Acoustics page, click on the 20T's and scroll down to the bottom, wouldn't it be cool to be able get something like that eh....

I would guess that the decision to add more color choices turns on whether or not adding more colors leads to incremental sales. If they would sell more speakers as a result, then it may make sense, but if they would sell the same number of speakers, but in a greater array of colors, then it's likely a non-starter as more colors means more inventory for distributors and retailers w/out an offsetting financial return. This is particularly true for a company like Paradigm that builds to a competitive price-point and builds prior-to-sale. It may be that Aerial Acoustics builds each speaker to order. ..Personally, I'm okay with fewer finish choices so long as i'm getting my money's worth sound-wise. Vandersteens approach (in all but their two most expensive speakers) is to use speaker cloth in lieu of veneer so that the savings can be applied to better drivers, cross-over components, etc.. It's an interesting approach that seems to have served them well.

One possibility, particularly with the S's (since they are covered in real wood) would be to make them available with an unstained finish so the owner could stain them however they like! ...Not likely to happen, though, as this would require that the owner disassemble, then reassemble the speaker which would be inviting all sorts of warranty claims.

 

[Warpdrv]

I can almost guarantee you that Aerial doesn't sell as many products as Paradigm, and you are dead on for the reasons they are withdrawing the extra finish options....

I am just hopeful something might change for the next run, but its doubtful...
I like stuff thats a bit more original then the next guy...
& I just like to whine ya know...


If worse comes to worst, who knows, I could even find myself refinishing with a totally different and original veneer, even if it would void my warranty...