Using an MC cartridge with an MM phono stage

BrettMendes

BrettMendes

Audioholic Intern
Will it create a problem? I'm thinking about buying the Pro-Ject Perspex Superpack that includes a Sumiko Blue Point EVO III MC cartridge and pairing it with the Arcam AV888 Pre-Amp which only has an MM Phono input. Do I need to buy a separate phono stage that can handle a MC?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Will it create a problem? I'm thinking about buying the Pro-Ject Perspex Superpack that includes a Sumiko Blue Point EVO III MC cartridge and pairing it with the Arcam AV888 Pre-Amp which only has an MM Phono input. Do I need to buy a separate phono stage that can handle a MC?
Yes, you absolutely do need a MC preamp, unless the cartridge is one of the few high output moving coils, which yours is. However the output is only 2.5 mv and I doubt your preamp stage will have enough gain.

I really don't like those high output moving coil cartridges. They have too little output for MM preamps and too much for MC preamps.

In fact in general I don't like moving coil cartridges. They are far more trouble than they are worth, and in my opinion sound worse than good MM designs.

I have used for many years Shure V 15 xmrs, sadly NLA for some time. (I have a stash of genuine replacement styli). I don't think a better cartridge was ever produced. For the nearest alternative, take a good look at the Ortofon 2M Black. It is a little more money, but you will be much happier with that, than the Sumiko.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Will it create a problem? I'm thinking about buying the Pro-Ject Perspex Superpack that includes a Sumiko Blue Point EVO III MC cartridge and pairing it with the Arcam AV888 Pre-Amp which only has an MM Phono input. Do I need to buy a separate phono stage that can handle a MC?
MC cartridges do not put out enough voltage for the gain of a MM pre-amp. You will need to get a pre-amp that handles the low voltages out of the MC.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
MC cartridges do not put out enough voltage for the gain of a MM pre-amp. You will need to get a pre-amp that handles the low voltages out of the MC.
His selected cartridge is a "high output" moving coil. These are designed to work with MM preamps and not MC preamps. However their output is low compared to MM types. His is 2.5 mv which is much higher than traditional moving coils. I suspect his volume control will be advanced higher than he wants however. He needs to be worried bout signal to noise issues.

As in my previous post, I would not recommend this cartridge. I regard these types as "Neither fish foul nor good red herring."
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I don't want to completely derail the thread, but I got a quick question for TLS.

You ever had any experience with strain gauge phono carts and pres? It's just a different animal than anything I am used to, wondered if you have seen them and have any thoughts on the matter?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't want to completely derail the thread, but I got a quick question for TLS.

You ever had any experience with strain gauge phono carts and pres? It's just a different animal than anything I am used to, wondered if you have seen them and have any thoughts on the matter?
There is nothing new under the sun is there?

Semiconductor materials can modulate a voltage and generate one when compressed.

When I was a very young kid, about 3 or 4 years of age, I remember there were two large dry cell batteries high up near the ceiling for the telephone. That was because the microphone of the telephone in those days was a carbon mic. The diaphragm had carbon granules packed in the chamber behind it. The carbon modulated the voltage from the batteries as the diaphragm squeezed the carbon granules in response to the changing air pressure.

As I advanced from 78 rpm records, I had crystal and then ceramic pickups.

The one I had longest, was the Decca Deram.



I did not use the Deram PU arm, but one I built myself. I think I was more creative a kid than I am now. In any event it was a unipivot deign and I managed to eliminate the drag of the lead out wires.

The cartridge was actually quite good. It was very kind to the records, and had very low moving mass. It produced 500 mv, did not require RIAA EQ, and needed a load impedance of 1 to 2 megohms.

Now the problem with ceramics, and this will be a problem for the Soundsmith, is that although there is no generator to move, ceramics are very hard, and don't move much.

So this means you have to have a very flexible lossy cantilever or interface between stylus and the solid state material. In the puff these sort of guys never reveal the problems, do they?

The Soundsmith has elected to go the voltage modulation route, which should certainly be good for signal to noise. It does require their own preamp however.

I would love to know how they approached the problem of interfacing a moving stylus with a virtually rigid structure. They gloss over that, in fact don't mention it. I bet there lies a tale.

Any how in my late teens I progressed to the Decca ffss, which I still have. That is the opposite extreme and has no cantilever. That really gives those Decca cartridges an immediacy, but not the best trackers for the rough and tumble, but just wonderful for early and Baroque music which I love.
 
M

Mitch Lee

Audiophyte
So . . . it never occurred to me to try this. But right now I am listening to the stereo release of Chris Connor Sings the Bossa Nova through a JVC OL-Y5F turntable and Denon DL-103 moving coil cartridge into the moving magnet preamp of a Carver 6250 receiver over Design Acoustic PS-10 loudspeakers . . . Whew! And despite my expectations that it would sound a bit gutless, I have to admit it really does sound fantasticly good. There is only one thing I have noticed that is a bit off. Some really loud notes toward the upper end of her range and some instruments in that frequency range seem a bit too loud. Like they are starting to ring. And there is a smoothness to the vocals that perhaps lacks a smidge of definition. But THAT is not unpleasant. All in all, I could actually listen and enjoy the music this way, no problem at all. As a matter of fact I am going to leave this setup as is in my bedroom rig for a while to enjoy. So one can, at least with this setup, enjoy a moving coil through a rig that expects moving iron. And it will be fine, not better than that, it will have a real appeal because I am really digging the sound. It's different but not bad. Just to be clear: I have no idea if another rig would support this configuraion and am not going to take the time to find out! Also, I did have to advance the power amp's volume past where I normally set it. I usually listen at between 9 and 12 clicks out of a total of 30 on the Carver (whatever THAT means in db, I have no idea) and with the Denon DL-103 the range is about 12 to 18. No biggie. Still well within the Carver's comfort zone. Below half-way. So enjoy if you can. And if you do. And if not, then get a moving coil preamp and do it per spec. BUT THIS DOES WORK. It is right now for a seriously picky audiophile, me.
 

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M

Mitch Lee

Audiophyte
Oh, and by the way, I hope this does not violate anything and will be glad to take it down if it does and even through the original post was 2013, just in case it helps ANYONE, I bought the Schiit Mani $130 preamp and the moving magnet function is very good. Not just for the money, it is good. Not great. Good. SO good most folks could never tell it from a $1000 preamp. The mc side does not shine quite as bright, but is solid and respectable. So unless you are willing to drop $20K on your stereo, then the Schiit Mani is an option for almost no bread. And with most budget systems like under $20K, you probably won't notice much difference. But everyone has different ears! Listener beware!
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
While I don't agree with Mark(TLS Guy)as it relates to all things 'moving coil' I will attest to their pickiness with respect to set up. One other area that requires attention during set up in MC's loading which can and does impact sound. As for Mitch Lee's Denon DL-103, a real classic in the affordable MC category, one which I feel is a better choice than the Blue Point in my book.
 
M

Mitch Lee

Audiophyte
While I don't agree with Mark(TLS Guy)as it relates to all things 'moving coil' I will attest to their pickiness with respect to set up. One other area that requires attention during set up in MC's loading which can and does impact sound. As for Mitch Lee's Denon DL-103, a real classic in the affordable MC category, one which I feel is a better choice than the Blue Point in my book.
Perhaps the loading is causing the upper mid to be exaggerated. But with most music, I don't hear it, only flutes, woman's voices, and so on. Also the slight lack of detail. But the Denon DL-103 certainly seems to come through with an enjoyable sound despite all this. Especially combo jazz and vocals as in the Liberty blue vinyl stereo release of Gene McDaniels "In Times Like These", which I am listen to now, is still magical in its nuance and definition despite the mismatched MM preamp. But I am starting to doubt, after a bit more reading, that this mismatch is often a good idea. Perhaps the Denon is an outlier. It was commonly used in radio stations under odd conditions. Perhaps it is more flexible and forgiving in its design than most mc cartridges. In any case, I am just speculating, but my ears tell the truth, and it does sound excellent even in this setup. A wonderful value, the DL-103! Not to be missed. Got mine new for $230.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Perhaps the loading is causing the upper mid to be exaggerated. But with most music, I don't hear it, only flutes, woman's voices, and so on. Also the slight lack of detail. But the Denon DL-103 certainly seems to come through with an enjoyable sound despite all this. Especially combo jazz and vocals as in the Liberty blue vinyl stereo release of Gene McDaniels "In Times Like These", which I am listen to now, is still magical in its nuance and definition despite the mismatched MM preamp. But I am starting to doubt, after a bit more reading, that this mismatch is often a good idea. Perhaps the Denon is an outlier. It was commonly used in radio stations under odd conditions. Perhaps it is more flexible and forgiving in its design than most mc cartridges. In any case, I am just speculating, but my ears tell the truth, and it does sound excellent even in this setup. A wonderful value, the DL-103! Not to be missed. Got mine new for $230.
and a popular cartridge to 'Hot Rod', think Zu and Soundsmith .....
 
M

Mitch Lee

Audiophyte
Yes, you absolutely do need a MC preamp, unless the cartridge is one of the few high output moving coils, which yours is. However the output is only 2.5 mv and I doubt your preamp stage will have enough gain.

I really don't like those high output moving coil cartridges. They have too little output for MM preamps and too much for MC preamps.

In fact in general I don't like moving coil cartridges. They are far more trouble than they are worth, and in my opinion sound worse than good MM designs.

I have used for many years Shure V 15 xmrs, sadly NLA for some time. (I have a stash of genuine replacement styli). I don't think a better cartridge was ever produced. For the nearest alternative, take a good look at the Ortofon 2M Black. It is a little more money, but you will be much happier with that, than the Sumiko.
It's certainly a different sound one gets with mc cartridges, generally more nuanced but perhaps less thrilling-- And not to everyone's liking. I rotate through about 25 or 30. And can't settle down on one or two. Most of my favorites are 20 to 60 years old. Have a few new, but don't really like them much. I suppose most of my stuff is about the same age. Shure V15 III and V, Grado 3, Ariston, AT 12 S and AT2214SH, Empire 2001Z, Acutex 315, Stanton 681, and many others. All of these have character as well as a certain neutrality. In other words, their distortions are appealing as opposed to horrid, to my ears. Everyone has their own ears. And all music reproduction distorts. Pick your poison.
 

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