Upsampling CD versus dual wolfman DAC's

2

20Glove

Audioholic
Ok,

I have a question will I really notice that much of a difference is I choose to buy an upsampling CD player as opposed to a CD player with high end dual DAC's?

I mean upsampling versus regular high end... is it worth $400... and when I listen to the test... what should I listen for?

Let me know.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok,

I have a question will I really notice that much of a difference is I choose to buy an upsampling CD player as opposed to a CD player with high end dual DAC's?

I mean upsampling versus regular high end... is it worth $400... and when I listen to the test... what should I listen for?

Let me know.
No, neither is worth that extra $$. A good DVD player will play CD well.

What are you after?
 
9

95prelude

Audioholic Intern
No, neither is worth that extra $$. A good DVD player will play CD well.

What are you after?


It will play just as well if not better. With a dedicated cd player you get,
No GUI
Instant tray eject
Instant start time
Instant gratitute
 
2

20Glove

Audioholic
I heard a difference

No, neither is worth that extra $$. A good DVD player will play CD well.

What are you after?
I listened to 4 different players... the Pioneer Elite 58AVi (DVD/CD/SACD), New Pioneer Elite 650 (SACD/CD), Sony 9100es (DVD/SACD/CD), and the Cambridge Audio Azur 650.

I heard a major difference between the DVD players CD and the Cambridge Audio CD. They used the same AV receiver, put it on Pure Direct (which they said would have the player do all the work), had them all hooked up with audio cables not HDMI or dig optical, and same speakers. Cambridge CD player sounded Fantastic. Wide, tall, deep sound that made you feel you were at the performance. The DVD players performed well... but the detail on the Cambridge was again.. FANTASTIC! Deeper warmer sound as well.

As far as the other SACD elite... not good. The SACD was GREAT but CD quality blew in my opinion. I thought both DVD players sounded better. Sony was a little too bright... Elite was #2 but Cambridge was #1 ahead of the rest.

What I am looking for is a player to give me the best quality for under $1000. They did not have any up sample CD players to listen to as those are special orders. But the salesman said up sample is like 480p TV picture to 1080p picture... just not sure if he is selling me or being honest... this is a new place I am going too so he could be selling me.

So what do you think?
 
2

20Glove

Audioholic
It will play just as well if not better. With a dedicated cd player you get,
No GUI
Instant tray eject
Instant start time
Instant gratitute
So are you for the CD only player or against it?

Let me know.

Salesman also said if I go with DVD and play CD's I am cutting the player life in half.

Anyway let me know your thoughts.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Salesman also said if I go with DVD and play CD's I am cutting the player life in half.
If you were to only play DVDs once a week vs playing DVDs once a week and CDs many times per week on the same player, then the player would be used more often. There is no way to quantify how that would affect the life of the player, other than more use will cause things to degrade more quickly. The act of playing a CD on a DVD player will do no more harm than playing a DVD.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
If you were to only play DVDs once a week vs playing DVDs once a week and CDs many times per week on the same player, then the player would be used more often. There is no way to quantify how that would affect the life of the player, other than more use will cause things to degrade more quickly. The act of playing a CD on a DVD player will do no more harm than playing a DVD.
It all comes down to the accuracy of the clock in the DAC. Now usually good AV receivers and AV preamps have good DACs. Especially AV preamps. I don't own receivers, but I have heard from digital engineers who know DACs that some of the receiver DACs are highly suspect. An accurate DAC is real money.

Now I have a Marantz professional CD player. I have an RME Fireface 800, which I selected as it has one of the most accurate clocks ever conceived.

I have a Rotel RSP 1098 and a Marantz DV 9600 Universal disc player.

Now the DAC in the Marantz professional CD player is clearly the weakest. The DAC in the marantz DV 9600 and the Rotel 1098 are to my mind indestinguishable.

I might give a slight edge to the RME DAC, but it is really splitting hairs and I can't be certain.

Now this is a high resolution system, where even an inexperienced listener can pick out a lossy compression codec from a lossless one without much difficulty, even at 320 KB/s.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008_RKGvb#127077317
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
The DAC has nothing to do with the longevity of a DVD player used to play CDs and that is what I responded to. I don't want to get into the debate about how different DACs may or may not be superior to others as it's an argument nobody can win.
 
2

20Glove

Audioholic
player life

If you were to only play DVDs once a week vs playing DVDs once a week and CDs many times per week on the same player, then the player would be used more often. There is no way to quantify how that would affect the life of the player, other than more use will cause things to degrade more quickly. The act of playing a CD on a DVD player will do no more harm than playing a DVD.
Ok, I am not really worried about life time of electronics as I will probably upgrade in less than 5 yrs and most stuff that high end will last 5 yrs and more.

My main question is that I have 2 DAC's in my Denon avr3808 but is the DAC's in the CD only players better than the DAC's in my Reciever? they both are 192/24 in the CD player and Reciever.

If my receiver has quality DAC's why would I buy anything but a DVD/CD/SACD player... cause if I have it hooked up via hdmi or dig toslink... that means the Receiver DAC's are working right rather than the CD player DAC's? And again if my Receiver has those quality DAC's should I just buy a good upconvert DVD/SACD/Cd player.... correct?

Any what does upsampling going to give me??
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
My main question is that I have 2 DAC's in my Denon avr3808 but is the DAC's in the CD only players better than the DAC's in my Reciever? they both are 192/24 in the CD player and Reciever.
Maybe yes, maybe no. You can't make a general statement that DACS in a dedicated CD only player will be better than what is in a DVD/universal player. Besides, the differences are minute. If you knew the brand and model of each you could determine which one is 'better' but as always the key question is 'is it audible?'

If my receiver has quality DAC's why would I buy anything but a DVD/CD/SACD player... cause if I have it hooked up via hdmi or dig toslink... that means the Receiver DAC's are working right rather than the CD player DAC's?
Correct.

Any what does upsampling going to give me??
Pretty much nothing.

Upsampling takes a bitstream with a lower bit depth and sampling frequency and turns it into another bitstream with a higher bit depth and sampling frequency. So it is similar, in concept, to what the TV has to do to a lower resolution signal with fewer pixels to turn it into a higher resolution.

It has to interpolate (ie 'guess') the new sample values. There are a few different ways to do it but none of them add new information. The only thing upsampling can possibly do is push quantization noise into much higher frequencies, but given that 44.1 kHz is already more than twice the the limit of human hearing the noise at or near 20 kHz is fairly low to begin with (in a properly recorded and dithered digital signal at least).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Salesman also said if I go with DVD and play CD's I am cutting the player life in half.

...
Absolute nonsense from that salesman. Have him back it up with EVIDENCE, not speculation.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I listened to 4 different players... the Pioneer Elite 58AVi (DVD/CD/SACD), New Pioneer Elite 650 (SACD/CD), Sony 9100es (DVD/SACD/CD), and the Cambridge Audio Azur 650.

I heard a major difference between the DVD players CD and the Cambridge Audio CD. They used the same AV receiver, put it on Pure Direct (which they said would have the player do all the work), had them all hooked up with audio cables not HDMI or dig optical, and same speakers. Cambridge CD player sounded Fantastic. Wide, tall, deep sound that made you feel you were at the performance. The DVD players performed well... but the detail on the Cambridge was again.. FANTASTIC! Deeper warmer sound as well.

As far as the other SACD elite... not good. The SACD was GREAT but CD quality blew in my opinion. I thought both DVD players sounded better. Sony was a little too bright... Elite was #2 but Cambridge was #1 ahead of the rest.

What I am looking for is a player to give me the best quality for under $1000. They did not have any up sample CD players to listen to as those are special orders. But the salesman said up sample is like 480p TV picture to 1080p picture... just not sure if he is selling me or being honest... this is a new place I am going too so he could be selling me.

So what do you think?
Perhaps you perceived a difference between them, perhaps it was your subconscious biases that caused you to perceive those perceived differences.
Unless the comparison is done properly, who know what you really perceived, let alone hear.
If you want best quality, have good speakers, room acoustics and well recorded CDs and you are done, period.
Or, just get one of those expensive ones and don't agonize.
 
T

tbewick

Senior Audioholic
Ok,

I have a question will I really notice that much of a difference is I choose to buy an upsampling CD player as opposed to a CD player with high end dual DAC's?

I mean upsampling versus regular high end... is it worth $400... and when I listen to the test... what should I listen for?

Let me know.
Most modern CD and DVD players use a digital-to-analogue converter which converts the original signal to one with a higher sampling rate than the original sample rate. This is done via interpolation of sample values. This means that an upsampling DAC is similar to an ordinary DAC which interpolates.

If you were to compare a DAC to another upsampling DAC, you would need to do so with both units level-matched (to 0.1 dB, I think), and the comparison would need to be made under double-blind conditions. Unless the comparison is made in these conditions, assertions of differences between the units could be imaginary.

Modern DACs typically offer superb performance:

'High quality CD players often deliver frequency response flat within 0.1 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. THD+N below –90 dB is available from CD players in almost any price class, and very good CD players may have distortion below –95 or –96 dB. Linearity error within 1 dB down through the -100 dB signal level is possible with the best CD players.' [1]

With some specialised signals, e.g., sinusoids, you may be able to detect differences between CD players. This may be due to differences between the players in levels of background noise or low-level linearity (see [2] for a discussion on the audibility of background noise). In ordinary listening, the signals which generate these errors can actually serve to audibly 'mask' the error itself.

One argument I've heard put forward for upsampling is potentially improved jitter performance [3]:

'Data-to-System synchronization allows any incoming audio stream to be resynchronized and retimed to a local high quality clock. By using a stable clock reference, the negative effects of inter-component jitter can be minimized. When converting the digital audio to an analog signal through high performance D/A converters, this reduction in jitter has enormous benefits in the level of detail and clarity in the reconstructed analog sound. Combining this process with a virtual time domain model that uses an advanced cubic interpolation algorithm to resample the incoming audio data, timing errors in this signal can be compensated for at amazing levels of accuracy. The end result is tighter, more focused bass, increased stereo imaging, focus and separation for all musical instruments and voices.'

Although this argues for potential improvements in sound quality, there is no reference to any high-quality perceptual research to back this up. Based on what I've read on jitter audibility, I am doubtful that existing CD/DVD players have indequate jitter performance [4,5]. Poorly designed digital audio equipment, e.g., some early computer sound cards, may have jitter-induced errors high enough to be audible in ordinary listening [6].

[1] Metzler, B. (2005). "The Audio Measurement Handbook". Second edition for PDF. Page 137. Audio Precision, USA.
http://ap.com/library/books.htm
[2] Stuart, J. (n.d.). "Coding High Quality Digital Audio". Meridian Audio Ltd, UK.
http://www.meridian-audio.com/ara/coding2.pdf
[3] Adams, B. (2005). 'Can You Change the Past?'. Analog Devices, Inc.
http://www.analog.com/communities/audio/BobsColumn/column0806.html
[4] Dunn, J. (2003). "Measurement Techniques for Digital Audio". Page 34. Audio Precision Application Note #5, Audio Precision, Inc. USA.
http://ap.com/library/technotes.htm
[5] Ashihara, K. et al (2005). "Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio", Acoustical Science and Technology, Vol. 26 (2005) , No. 1 pp.50-54.
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_50/_article
[6] Krueger, A. ' PCAVTech Sound Card Technical Benchmarks Test Summary'.
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/summary/index.htm
 
2

20Glove

Audioholic
Perhaps you perceived a difference between them, perhaps it was your subconscious biases that caused you to perceive those perceived differences.
Unless the comparison is done properly, who know what you really perceived, let alone hear.
If you want best quality, have good speakers, room acoustics and well recorded CDs and you are done, period.
Or, just get one of those expensive ones and don't agonize.
Well he switched between them all without me knowing which was on and which was off... I narrowed down the two that I like the best... DVD58Avi and Cambridge Audio Azur 650... and then out of those 2 I picked the Cambridge. It was like the Coke versus Pepsi tests we used to have in our malls... but I did not know the taste of each... In my opinion this was unbaised... I had no thoughts about which player was best for me so it was unbiased as I could get I think.

Anyway... the Elite 58AVi $500 and the Azur 650 open box is $500... so both the same price.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
[5] Ashihara, K. et al (2005). "Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio", Acoustical Science and Technology, Vol. 26 (2005) , No. 1 pp.50-54.
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_50/_article
Thanks for this reference and to know that this paper commented on Benjamin and Gannon. Even though B&G had a smaller JND, that level is still a number of orders above anything out there. Jitter should be in the history books:D
 
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