Upgraged receiver, now sub can be locaized.

[agarwalro]

I recently upgraded from a Yamaha 5890 to Denon 3806. A problem has surfaced which never existed before. I can localize the subwoofer during movies but not during music.

A few things to note,
1) The only thing that has changed is the receiver. All speakers, sub, couch in exact same position, etc.
2) With the Yammy, I did not have this problem, not during music or movies
3) With the Yammy, crossover was set to 80Hz at subwoofer, speakers getting full signal.
4) With the Denon, crossover set to 60Hz in the receiver and bypassed on the sub, all speakers set to small
5) With the Denon, for 2.1 music, cross over set to 60Hz, Mains get full signal. Yet, I have to touch the sub to tell that it is playing, even at high volumes
6) With the Denon, during movies, the sub can be localized during special effects and dramatic music.

I have calibrated to match level & phase, then tweaked and failed to get rid of the subwoofer (acoustically ). Any advise will be greatly appreciated.

 

[MACCA350]

From what you wrote, it looks like your bass management is setup differently with the Denon then it was with the Yamaha.

3) With the Yammy, crossover was set to 80Hz at subwoofer, speakers getting full signal.
4) With the Denon, crossover set to 60Hz in the receiver and bypassed on the sub, all speakers set to small

When you say the Yamaha 'speakers getting full signal' did you have them set to large? this would mean that your sub was only getting the specific LFE channel and nothing from the mains(unless you had the Double Bass feature on).

Now with your speakers set to small on the Denon all that bass is getting redirected to the sub, which means the sub now is playing a lot more bass then before. Except for music where you say 'With the Denon, for 2.1 music, cross over set to 60Hz, Mains get full signal' sounds like the mains are set to Large.

Could you explain you settings a bit more thoroughly including the Denon's subwoofer settings.

cheers

 

[agarwalro]

The gory details; not for the faint of heart ;-)

macca350, thanks for the response. I appreciate you taking on this advanced level question that did not generate any other responses (as opposed to questions like "Help me decide which speaker/ subwoofer/ receiver/ amp/ cable to get", which generate a deluge of responses ).

The main difference is that the Denon passes signal to the sub pre-out in "Direct" mode but the Yammy did not. So keeping that in mind, here goes...

3) With the Yammy, crossover was set to 80Hz at subwoofer, speakers getting full signal.

Now that I think of it, that may not be 100% accurate. In the interest of being brief, I left out something. I used the Front L, R preouts and a Y splitter to get full range signal to the sub. The crossover on the sub was enabled and set at 80Hz. The mains got Full range signal since they were set to large and all other speaker were set to small with crossover in the receiver set at 80Hz as well.
Meaning (ignoring roll off);
During 5.1 movies, Mains got full signal, all other speakers got signal 80Hz and above, and sub played 80Hz and below.
During 2.0 music, Mains got full signal, all other speakers got no signal and subwoofer played 80Hz and below. Effectively 2.1

Perfect, I got everything the way I wanted it. The only reason for having this counter-intuitive bass management scheme was to have 2.1 audio when listening to 2.0 recordings.

4) With the Denon, crossover set to 60Hz in the receiver and bypassed on the sub, all speakers set to small

Now the Denon's sub preout works in the "Direct" mode. Meaning, I dont have to have seperate configurations. So a blanket setting covers all needs while allowing 2.1 audio when listening to 2.0 recordings. 60Hz was chosen since the Mains have -3dB point at 35Hz or so.

5) With the Denon, for 2.1 music, cross over set to 60Hz, Mains get full signal. Yet, I have to touch the sub to tell that it is playing, even at high volumes

The Denon allows different crossover config for 5.1 and 2.1 audio (did I mention I love this receiver). So the only difference between the 5.1 and 2.1 setting now is (ignoring roll off);
During 5.1 movies, all speakers including mains get 60Hz and above, sub plays 60Hz and below.
During 2.0 music, Mains get full signal, sub plays 60Hz and below. Effectively 2.1 audio.


Now the conundrum... I can't localize the sub when it plays music. That tells me the 60Hz crossover for the sub with mains getting full signal for 2.1 audio is working great. But, during movies, I CAN localize the sub. That tells me the 60Hz crossover for 5.1 audio with mains crossed over as well is not working. What gives...

 

[JHixson]

Is there a seperate setting for the LFE crossover. If there is maybe it is set to high.

 

[MACCA350]

As yet I haven't found a good explanation of how that LFE Xover works in the newer models(even in their manuals it isn't explained). I am guessing that it acts as a Low Pass crossover allowing you cap the specific LFE channel information independently of the other channels. If so then what JHixson suggested may be the culprit if it is set to high.

Try setting your mains to large and recreate the settings you had with your Yamaha, just to see if you can get a similar blend that you are accustom to.

cheers

 

[agarwalro]

Thanks for the replies. Now that you mention it, it seems like the most obvious thing to try. Hindsight is 20/20 . The earliest I can do this is tomorrow and then I will post my experience.