Upgrading power cables...Snake oil or not!

[mtrycrafts]

I believe it was PT Barnum who said that no one ever lost money over estimating the gullibility of the American public. Also there is the old saying, "a fool and his money are soon parted." As I stated in an earlier post on this topic, the professional recording studios do not use these super power cords so I guess we all are already screwed since the cds and dvds we buy have been already been contaminated.

Thanks for explaining the Barnum Effect to him. I picked on him too much already

 

[Leprkon]

HEY !!! Can we get the GLOB (TM) guys to makes us power cables too ????

 

[mtrycrafts]

HEY !!! Can we get the GLOB (TM) guys to makes us power cables too ????

Sure Then we'll have a light show no other can duplicate.

 

[miklorsmith]

You picked on me too much already? Disagreement establishes no superiority of position. I'm not the little kid with braces. I suppose Barnum's "Law of Gullibility" applies anywhere it is brought into a conversation?

Anyone waiting for DBT testing to prove this or that will never have exceptional sound in their home. It might be good enough for them, but it will not be incredible.

This arises from overactive skepticism and an underlying belief that no improvements short of speakers has any effect on sound. Of course, the fact that speakers only play the signal they are given is meaningless.

It might be that power cables don't make a difference. Or, it might be that interconnects don't have an effect. Or, vibration control. Possibly EMF/RFI are figments of gullible imaginations. Ditto for CD copies. Amplifiers. But, all of them?

The problem is that believing all of it is hooey denies benefits of any of them - the entire idea of improvements in the signal path is written off. What if half of the unprovable/unproven possibilities are valid? What if they provide benefits, but not strikingly enough to pass DBT muster. Combined, a significant improvement could be realized.

It is undeniable that a LOT of people believe their sound can be improved. This relegates the "nothing matters, why try" regimen to a smug viewpoint only.

Here's a DBT for you to take on, disbelievers: Build a good system, with purpose-built components, good wires, vibration control, do it right. Then, hook that up to a killer pair of speakers. Also, for the comparison, hook up your system to the same speakers. Tell me with a straight face they sound the same.

That would be meaningful. Sound ridiculous? Why? All the things I hold to matter shouldn't matter, even in combination. However, when they are put together, a monkey would be able to tell the difference. Then, you might actually see the light. It's OK not to spend money on upgrades. Explaining that as justified for lack of effect is blind. Maybe repeating it a thousand times will make it true. Or a million.

Actually, the prevailing thought in this forum is bumming me out. Saying the same stuff to the same people just isn't invigorating and it isn't helping me grow.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Anyone waiting for DBT testing to prove this or that will never have exceptional sound in their home. It might be good enough for them, but it will not be incredible.

Supposition at best.

This arises from overactive skepticism and an underlying belief that no improvements short of speakers has any effect on sound. Of course, the fact that speakers only play the signal they are given is meaningless.

Actuall, room acoustics has a huge roll, no?
Yes, modern, well designed componets, most of them, are transparent, hence the signals to the speakers are stransparent to the recorded signal and the speaker and your room is the weak link, period, end of story.
You place too much on a beliefe that your ears are more sensitive than the componets are already. Skeptics just doubt the bogus claims made in audio, or other consumer marketplace.



It might be that power cables don't make a difference. Or, it might be that interconnects don't have an effect. Or, vibration control. Possibly EMF/RFI are figments of gullible imaginations. Ditto for CD copies. Amplifiers. But, all of them?

Well, your CD recorder could be faulty, especially when used at high rates and on poor CDr discs? EMI/RFI are real but people are overly eager to blame it for their imagined perceptions of faults. SET amps are garbage so you can exclude them from being modren, well designed.

The problem is that believing all of it is hooey denies benefits of any of them - the entire idea of improvements in the signal path is written off.

The problem is that people believe in undemontstated claims of audio fancy. Believe that their ears are infallable with unlimited detection capability.



What if half of the unprovable/unproven possibilities are valid?

Then they would not be question. But, they are not demonstrated to be valid.


What if they provide benefits, but not strikingly enough to pass DBT muster.

If it cannot muste to a DBT demonstration, then it has only a personal preference benefit, nothing more. Like buying a 5lb bag of name brand sugar that costs $.30 more than the store brand.



Combined, a significant improvement could be realized.

Ah, but then this could be demonstrated in a DBT. So far it is not happening and th eopposite has been demonstrated in a DBT by Tom Nousaine a few years ago.

"To Tweak, or Not to Tweak?", Nousaine, Tom, Stereo Review, Jun 98, pg 79-81.




It is undeniable that a LOT of people believe their sound can be improved. This relegates the "nothing matters, why try" regimen to a smug viewpoint only.

Well, first of a;ll, we have established that speakers and your room acoustics matter, right? Then, your statement is somewhat erroneous.
Second, just because a LOT of people believe doesn't mean anything, that they are in fact right, right? Lots of such examples in the marketplace, no? Alternative medicines, psychics, religion, you name it. Lots of people believe wrongly.

Here's a DBT for you to take on, disbelievers: Build a good system, with purpose-built components, good wires, vibration control, do it right. Then, hook that up to a killer pair of speakers. Also, for the comparison, hook up your system to the same speakers. Tell me with a straight face they sound the same.

Been done. Check out that link above

That would be meaningful. Sound ridiculous? Why? All the things I hold to matter shouldn't matter, even in combination. However, when they are put together, a monkey would be able to tell the difference.

False, unproven speculation on your part.


Then, you might actually see the light. It's OK not to spend money on upgrades. Explaining that as justified for lack of effect is blind. Maybe repeating it a thousand times will make it true. Or a million.

Or, making unsupported claim a million time will make it true, right?

Actually, the prevailing thought in this forum is bumming me out. Saying the same stuff to the same people just isn't invigorating and it isn't helping me grow.

So then, one day 2+2 is 3.95, next week it shoul be 4.03, 6 month from now may be 3.7865? Some things just don't change because it is Monday or Friday, or a year passed.
But, in the meantime, your hearing is getting worse, not better. That is nature of things.

 

[miklorsmith]

Hasta!

New perspective is what I mean. I don't expect people to individually change, but an evolution of collective thought-process would be nice, with fresh ideas from different people.

This thread is indicative of the same tired arguments we keep having that don't go anywhere.

Mtrycrafts - your steadfast commitment to your ideas and unflagging willingness to share them repeatedly with anyone who'll pose a question is admirable and certainly a needed perspective in this hobby that can be utterly ridiculous in its claims and temptation factor. I certainly have moderated my optimism in upgrades relating to my system as a result of these discussions.

Ultimately, I do not have your patience to keep covering this ground as a rare voice of dissention in the ranks. The guidance I seek in the directions I wish to go in audio are insufficiently promoted within this forum and for that reason, I will be immigrating, effective immediately.

I'm sure somebody else will jump in to reflect the idea that it is possible you can help yourself out elsewhere besides speakers and acoustics.

If I ever get around to my blind CD-R shootout, I might post it here. Otherwise, happy trails!

 

[jaxvon]

I know this has been said before, but I just want to get it off my chest. What so many people do not realize when the talk about cables and other "tweaks" is that the science they try to dismiss is the same science that makes their components work and sound good. If engineers did not have a good grasp of such concepts then they wouldn't even have the awesome quality of equipment to try to "tweak". Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Skywalker Sound does use some fancy power cables, Shunyata Research if I remember correctly.

 

[Nick250]

What so many people do not realize when the talk about cables and other "tweaks" is that the science they try to dismiss is the same science that makes their components work and sound good. If engineers did not have a good grasp of such concepts then they wouldn't even have the awesome quality of equipment to try to "tweak".

You are misinformed. The engineers who design the speakers, receivers, CD player, etc., roll their eyes, shake their heads in disbelief and chuckle when they hear about the latest cable/power cord tweak, etc., comes up. There is no science behind these tweaks. Do you really believe that the manufacture of a $4000 amp would ship it with a power cord that needed to be replaced as soon as the consumer opened the box? Of course not. Do you know that the reason most speakers are bi-wireable is because the marketing department (Not engineering) asked for it and not because it made any difference in sound? I think you may be a tad naive. However if you enjoy the fun of tinkering, then fine, just be aware that there is no science behind most tweakes (other than speaker placement and room acoustics).

 

[WorkerBee]

Well Nick, Enjoy your three cents a foot zip cord

 

[Mudcat]

Well Nick, Enjoy your three cents a foot zip cord

Even zip cord is not that cheap. maybe 12 cent/ft.

 

[mustang_steve]

just get a good noise filter for your power, and then you don't have to worry about noise etc.

Fancy power cables are jewlery for the most part...I've given in to dressing up my system before (look at my K&B speaker cable cable review....it's PURPLE!!!! [happy grin!]), but I'll still call it what it is...dressing up.

 

[Mudcat]

(look at my K&B speaker cable cable review....it's PURPLE!!!! [happy grin!]), but I'll still call it what it is...dressing up.

They have day-glo, neon, and other bright colored extension cords now-a-days.

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=202940-16503-CC507733

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=154290-171-8663

 

[jaxvon]

Nick, either I'm crazy or maybe you just read my post wrong. I'm sure as HECK not sucked into the whole cable phenomenon. I was just commenting that the people who are always promoting tweaks, especially cables, tend to dismiss the real science that is used to design a quality cable (Electromagnetic stuff, Transmission Line Theory, etc). I was just saying that these same principles of science go into making their amps and other components work and sound good. Thus, if science works for amps, speakers, and other components, why not for cables? I'm just commenting on how stubborn and shortsighted the "OMGTWEAKSRGOOD" view tends to be. I know I'm reitterating what's already been said, but damn! I don't want to be labled a "soothsayer"!

And on the Skywalker Sound thing, I was simply pointing out that at least one big-time studio uses some fancy-dancy stuff. Not that it matters, but just for...reference...or something.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Just remember that as a line connection between the source and the loudspeaker, a cable cannot make the music sound any better than it was originally. It can only make it "less distorted" than any other cable.

Or, in George W. speak: "Less bad does not equal gooder".

 

[Nick250]

I was just saying that these same principles of science go into making their amps and other components work and sound good. Thus, if science works for amps, speakers, and other components, why not for cables? QUOTE]

I do agree that there is science for cables. And that science is uncomplicated and well understood. That being said, this science tells us that their is nothing the expensive cable manufactures can do to make their cables sound any better than, say Radio Shack Gold Series or Home Depot 12 gauge speaker wire. There is simply nothing to improve upon.