Upgrading my speakers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One option you may want to consider is to buy your speakers in stages.... Get a good pair of towers first

I agree.

If I did not have all the funds, I would just get the front pair first.

For example, I would get a pair of the KEF Q900 first + a Subwoofer because I think these are the 3 most important.

Then I would get 2 pairs of the Q300 bookshelf or 2 pairs of the Q100 bookshelf to make a 6.1 system or just 5.1 and keep 1 spare speaker.

 

[cpp]

I wonder what the OP's speaker requirements are for, music, HT, plain old TV etc...and how big is the room ?

 

[GranteedEV]

All the Qs had great measurements. Notice the Q600 did not measure as great at the Q100. Another reason why I don't prefer to use the horizontal center speakers!

Interesting. Looking at the graph, it seems there was a crossover problem or something near 900hz. The 3-way crossover in the Q600 was probably kept minimalist to keep price acceptable, as the Q900 is only a 2.5 way. That, or it's a diffraction artifact; I don't know to be honest. The response dip below 500hz is desirable however, as it means the center has reduced BSC, because once you put it under a TV the TV will reflect the rearwards bass back at the listener, filling in the response. The 900hz dip and 1.5khz peak are really unfortunate though, since a coaxial center channel is really something desirable.

 

[Hawkeye379]

Where did you price the PSBs? Their plant is located just outside Pickering which I believe is still in the GTA. One option you may want to consider is to buy your speakers in stages.... Get a good pair of towers first...once the funds build back up, the srrounds, sub, and lastly the center channel. That's how I built my HT system. Took me a couple of years but pateince has its rewards. My friends are very impressed with the sound of my system.

Here are the measurements for the Image T6 which are very good at any price range. The Kefs measure better but are at least 3x times the cost.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/psb-image-t6-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Not a bad idea about buying in stages.

The price is from a dealer called Bay Bloor Radio, they have a website with pricing.

I agree.

If I did not have all the funds, I would just get the front pair first.

For example, I would get a pair of the KEF Q900 first + a Subwoofer because I think these are the 3 most important.

Then I would get 2 pairs of the Q300 bookshelf or 2 pairs of the Q100 bookshelf to make a 6.1 system or just 5.1 and keep 1 spare speaker.

I was pretty set on the Paradigms, but I appreciate all the help and suggestions here. I'm still not sure what I will do, but I think the Paradigms are still my first choice because of my budget. If I like how they sound I will probably get them.

I wonder what the OP's speaker requirements are for, music, HT, plain old TV etc...and how big is the room ?

I'll be using them for watching a lot of movies, playing lots of video games, plenty of HDTV watching, and plenty of music. The room is, wait for it, 8' x 11.5', it's just my bedroom. Not a very big room as you can see. However I will be switching to a bigger room in our basement in the near future, although it isn't substantially bigger, maybe a few feet in each direction.

 

[3db]

Go to another PSB dealer. There MUST be at least a few in the GTA.

BTW, it was my suggestion about breaking out the speaker packagaes in stages.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. Looking at the graph, it seems there was a crossover problem or something near 900hz. The 3-way crossover in the Q600 was probably kept minimalist to keep price acceptable, as the Q900 is only a 2.5 way. That, or it's a diffraction artifact; I don't know to be honest. The response dip below 500hz is desirable however, as it means the center has reduced BSC, because once you put it under a TV the TV will reflect the rearwards bass back at the listener, filling in the response. The 900hz dip and 1.5khz peak are really unfortunate though, since a coaxial center channel is really something desirable.

But at least the Q600c is still within the +/-3dB tolerance.

The Image C5’s listening-window response measures +1.67/–4.12 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz, which is way over the standard tolerance.

So perhaps the Q600 could have been worse if it were not for the coaxial design?

I just think overall most horizontal center speakers just do not perform as well as their vertical counterparts.

 

[Hawkeye379]

Go to another PSB dealer. There MUST be at least a few in the GTA.

BTW, it was my suggestion about breaking out the speaker packagaes in stages.

There's a bunch of PSB dealers in the GTA, I'll have to give them a call about their prices later.

I knew that didn't look right where I typed that out. Fixed.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the Paradigms are still my first choice because of my budget. If I like how they sound I will probably get them.

The important thing is auditioning different speakers. Everything is relative. You don't know how good a speaker is until you have compared it to other speakers.

If you audition the PSB, Paradigm, KEF, Def Tech, Monitor Audio, etc., and find that the Paradigm sounds the best to you, then you should get the Paradigm.

 

[Hawkeye379]

The important thing is auditioning different speakers. Everything is relative. You don't know how good a speaker is until you have compared it to other speakers.

If you audition the PSB, Paradigm, KEF, Def Tech, Monitor Audio, etc., and find that the Paradigm sounds the best to you, then you should get the Paradigm.

I just wish my local dealer had PSB, it would make things so much easier rather than driving all over the place.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just wish my local dealer had PSB, it would make things so much easier rather than driving all over the place.

You don't want to spend money on a speaker system and then later find out that you could have bought a different system that is much better. You want to be sure.

Have you ever listened to any Paradigm speakers?

 

[GranteedEV]

I just wish my local dealer had PSB, it would make things so much easier rather than driving all over the place.

One way of making it easier is to trust measurements

And my opinion - Paradigm monitors are mehhh

 

[GranteedEV]

I just think overall most horizontal center speakers just do not perform as well as their vertical counterparts.

I agree, where possible, center should be identical but an acoustically transparent screen is needed. I'm not big on bookshelf centers, thet just look wrong to me ;P and can't match the dynamics of tower mains.

I bet a horizontal Seaton Catalyst comes really damn close to a vertical seaton catalyst, though ;P I'd bet the higher end WCW KEF centers have great measurements - the Q600 still measures well but you get the sense they cheaped out with the crossover.

 

[Hawkeye379]

You don't want to spend money on a speaker system and then later find out that you could have bought a different system that is much better. You want to be sure.

Have you ever listened to any Paradigm speakers?

I haven't listened to Paradigm, but then again I haven't listened to any speakers other than my Polks.

One way of making it easier is to trust measurements

And my opinion - Paradigm monitors are mehhh

It seems like that is the consensus. Are the PSB's really that much better? I will make an effort to audition them, they just cost quite a bit more a pair. Maybe I can haggle for a deal.

One thing about the PSBs. They are 6 ohms I think, would that be a problem for my Yamaha HTR-6063 (RV-V667)? They also have a lower sensitivity, does that mean they need/use more power?

 

[GranteedEV]

It seems like that is the consensus. Are the PSB's really that much better? I will make an effort to audition them, they just cost quite a bit more a pair. Maybe I can haggle for a deal.

I have never heard a PSB speaker, but the measurements of the T6 suggest to me it's a quality speaker.

Do you have any woodworking tools by any chance? If you're interested in spending some free time putting together speaker boxes, you could end up with a wicked good DIY setup within your budget

 

[Hawkeye379]

I have never heard a PSB speaker, but the measurements of the T6 suggest to me it's a quality speaker.

Do you have any woodworking tools by any chance? If you're interested in spending some free time putting together speaker boxes, you could end up with a wicked good DIY setup within your budget

Not really no, I've never done something like that before.

I just remembered, there is a store fairly close to me that sells PSB speakers, they don't have the Image T6, but they have the Image T5 and they have all the other Image series speakers as well. I'll have to pay them a visit and audition the PSB. If I do happen to like PSB, I'll ask them if they can get a pair of the Image T6 for me and maybe give me a deal as this place is good for giving deals most of the time. I think it's between Paradigm and PSB now, considering they are relatively close in price for each of their offerings.

One thing about the Image C5 center, it has two 5 1/4 woofers, while the Paradigm CC-290 center has two 6 1/2 woofers plus a 4 1/2 midrange driver. The Paradigm is a 3-way and the PSB is either a 2 or 2.5-way design. Wouldn't the Paradigm sound better?

On the other hand, the Paradigm Monitor 9 is a 2.5-way design while the PSB Image T6 is a 3-way design.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you believe in speaker measurements, the best sounding center speaker will have the best measured performance, not the most number of larger drivers.

The KEF Q600c’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.22/–2.95 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The PSB Imagine C’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.14/–3.28 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The PSB Image C5’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +0.90/–4.60 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Infinity Classia CC225’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.03/–2.37 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Paradigm Reference Signature C5’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +3.50/–3.17 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Monitor Audio RX Centre’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.29/–5.14 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The B&W CM Centre 2’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.96/–4.85 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

So if you believe in speaker measurements, only 2 of these "Center" speakers fall in the standard FR deviation of +/- 3dB ---------- Infinity & KEF.

If you believe in speaker measurements.

 

[jonnythan]

Speaker measurements are one thing, but they're not the only thing. Keep in mind those measurements are not done at high volume levels. I imagine the SuperZero "measures" as well as the Q600 but if you're trying to fill a large room with sound they're not going to do all that well.

 

[GranteedEV]

Speaker measurements are one thing, but they're not the only thing. Keep in mind those measurements are not done at high volume levels. I imagine the SuperZero "measures" as well as the Q600 but if you're trying to fill a large room with sound they're not going to do all that well.

I concur, but at the same time, I consider a power compression test to be as important a speaker measurement as any

 

[jonnythan]

I concur, but at the same time, I consider a power compression test to be as important a speaker measurement as any

Indeed. Those can be hard to come by and interpret though.

 

[3db]

If you believe in speaker measurements, the best sounding center speaker will have the best measured performance, not the most number of larger drivers.

The KEF Q600c’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.22/–2.95 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The PSB Imagine C’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.14/–3.28 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The PSB Image C5’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +0.90/–4.60 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Infinity Classia CC225’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.03/–2.37 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Paradigm Reference Signature C5’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +3.50/–3.17 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Monitor Audio RX Centre’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.29/–5.14 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The B&W CM Centre 2’s average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.96/–4.85 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

So if you believe in speaker measurements, only 2 of these "Center" speakers fall in the standard FR deviation of +/- 3dB ---------- Infinity & KEF.

If you believe in speaker measurements.

Look at the left right mains as they do a majority of the grunt work in a HT. I'd base by my speakers purchase based on the mains rather tthan the center channel because left right mains do the majority of the grunt work in a HT. The center channel is way overrated in importance. The wide variations in a center channel is due to lobing affects in an MTM array. Taken off center which the measurements do exagerates the problem. Listening to center channel on axes will smooth out the frequency response curve somewhat.

Are we disagreeing?