Upgrading from Axiom M3Ti

[lukejr]

I am looking to buy bookshelf speakers to replace a pair of Axiom M3ti speakers which I've had for 3 years. Although the M3Ti speakers sound good, I do feel I would like to hear something better now. I am looking for more detail, a more neutral less warm sound, bigger soundstage, and better imaging. I feel that the M3Ti has a wooly warm sound, and cannot pick out enough detail for my liking. The sound also is laid back and I think I would prefer something more forward. I am also looking for something with better treble smoothness.

My modest system at the moment includes a NAD 320BEE integrated, a HSU STF-1 sub, Little Dot MK III tube amp, and a Panasonic DVD player. I feel this system gives me a good entry into hi-fi sound, although I think that the Panasonic player would be the weak link. I don't think I want to upgrade the source at this time since I prefer to upgrade speakers first.

I was thinking of narrowing my search to Canadian speakers, since it's probably easy to buy here in Vancouver, BC. My top choices are PSB, Paradigm, and Energy. Specifically I have researched the Energy RC-10 and the PSB Image B25. Both come close in the reviews I heard, however, I am still undecided between them. In terms of looks, I prefer the Energy RC-10 slightly more. I also have not had a chance to audition them yet.

Anyways, any ideas on these speakers or any others? My budget is below $600. I was hoping to buy speakers that would give improvements on the M3Ti. The improvements doesn't have to be substantial... maybe 25% improvement would suffice. I know I would have to spend major bucks for anything more. Thank you.

 

[MinusTheBear]

If you liked the Axiom sound and were happy with your M3's, I think moving up to the M22v2 might be a good choice. From what I have heard they are are much more detailed and more foward sounding than the M3's and a better speaker overall. You could also take advantage of Axioms trade up program to the M22v2 which will not cost you that much to upgrade from your M3's to M22 which will probaby cut your budget in half.

 

[FirstReflection]

With the M3Ti speakers, you're at the point where the limiting factor in terms of the detail and imaging that you hear is not the speakers themselves, but the room in which you are using them.

Up to a certain point, the speakers themselves simply are not delivering accurate sound from the source - in which case, upgrading the speakers will make the most difference. But once you reach a certain level of performance, the speakers are delivering accurate sound, but the room acoustics are what dictate the final sound that you hear.

Can you upgrade the M3Ti speakers and get a more pleasing sound to your ears? Yes.

But you could quite possibly gain greater improvement by acoustically treating your room at this point.

Your post did not include details about your room, so I would strongly suggest starting there. We could use details on the dimensions, layout, furniture placement and the way in which your equipment is setup to try and identify issues with your room's acoustics.

Basically, all I'm trying to say is that a speaker upgrade may not necessarily give you the improvement to your sound that you are looking for. While the M3Ti speakers do have a warmer, more bid-bass driven sound than a ruler flat accurate speaker, I've certainly never known them to lack detail. The tweeter is the same as in all other Axiom speakers and most people find it to be highly detailed, some even going so far as to call it "bright".

If you are finding a lack of detail and a "wooly" sound to the mid-bass with the M3Ti speakers, that suggests poor room acoustics more than it does any problem with the speakers themselves.

Again, I'm not saying that new speakers might not give you the sound you are looking for, but I'm simply going by your comments about what you are hearing, what you would like and comparing that to my own experience with the same speakers. Your descriptions, to me, simply indicate that the issue is room acoustics and not the actual output from the speakers.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

How warm are the Axioms when driven by the NAD alone, it may be your tube amp "warming" things up. Just wondering.

 

[lukejr]

FirstReflection, thanks for your thorough reply. My room layout is indeed not the ideal listening room, but it would suffice. It's 10x10 feet, and 8 feet high ceilings. Quite a smallish room to be sure. There's a large window 3x5 feet on one side. The speakers are on metal stands (filled), situated one feet from the end wall, and about two feet from the side walls. They are about six feet apart and slightly toed in. Any ideas on what I can do to acoustically treat the room, and how much it will cost?

The tweeters do pick up details, however, I wouldn't call them bright. I do find that sometimes I am looking for more detail and clarity in the music, and I don't hear it. Maybe I am simply not 100% satisfied with the system and feel there is room for improvements. I'm not saying that the M3Ti is a bad speaker at all. In fact I would say that it's gets me up to 85% close to what I want from my music. There's still that extra room for improvement. Considering that it's a so called budget speaker, that's quite impressive.

Gimpy, the tube amp may indeed warm up the sound a bit, but they actually make the sound better. I believe I hear more detail and clarity with the source going through the tube than without it. That's why I have it set up this way.

 

[3db]

FirstReflection, thanks for your thorough reply. My room layout is indeed not the ideal listening room, but it would suffice. It's 10x10 feet, and 8 feet high ceilings. Quite a smallish room to be sure. There's a large window 3x5 feet on one side. The speakers are on metal stands (filled), situated one feet from the end wall, and about two feet from the side walls. They are about six feet apart and slightly toed in. Any ideas on what I can do to acoustically treat the room, and how much it will cost?

The tweeters do pick up details, however, I wouldn't call them bright. I do find that sometimes I am looking for more detail and clarity in the music, and I don't hear it. Maybe I am simply not 100% satisfied with the system and feel there is room for improvements. I'm not saying that the M3Ti is a bad speaker at all. In fact I would say that it's gets me up to 85% close to what I want from my music. There's still that extra room for improvement. Considering that it's a so called budget speaker, that's quite impressive.

Gimpy, the tube amp may indeed warm up the sound a bit, but they actually make the sound better. I believe I hear more detail and clarity with the source going through the tube than without it. That's why I have it set up this way.

Here's a good link to room acoutics primer and a DIY acoustic panel setup which I constructed myself and works fairly well.

http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id=40&thread.id=27061

 

[lukejr]

Gimpy, just to expand on my earlier description of the tube sound. The sound is indeed warmer and has a punchier bass. I hear more weight in the lower frequencies and that's not exactly a bad thing. The bass just sounds better and gives more slam. There's a pleasant fullness and smoothness that the tube imparts on the sound. I seem to hear a roundness to vocals, and it seems less raw. In other words, it adds a bit more definition to the sound without changing it drastically. It's definitely noticeable if I listen closely.

Without the tube amp, the sound is leaner, slightly less defined, and the edges are less precise. The sound is more raw and some listeners will say that it's bright. That's not the case having the tube amp warm up the sound.

 

[fredk]

You're getting good advice all around. The M3 is a good speaker for the money, but it does have a hump around 100Hz that gives more apparent bass/warmer sound.

The woolyness may well be room accoustics. There is a forum here on room accoustics that you should check out.

In general, my understanding is that room acoustics will have almost as big an effect on overall sound as speaker choice. Small rooms, because of how room modes (frequencies encreased by room reflections) are spread out, are worse. Square rooms are also bad because width and length room modes are the same so you will get worse peaks.

Putting your dimensions into a mode calcuator, you probably have peaks at 57 113 170 and 226Hz. From what I have read, the modes over 100Hz are easily treatable with broadband corner absorbers (superchunks) and not that expensive or hard to make yourself.

The M22 is a definite step up from the M3. It will extend a little lower, but does not have that 100Hz hump. You will also gain on mid range and trebble clarity/detail.

If you do decide to change speakers, see if you can do an in home comparison to the M3s to make sure you are getting the better sound you want.

I do think it would be worth trying to treat your room a little first to see if that helps, and then look at upgrading speakers.

 

[FirstReflection]

Definitely if you are in square or nearly square room, that would - in most cases - explain the "wooly" sound. What's happening is that as bass and mid-bass frequencies reflect off of your walls, they double back on themselves which leads to some frequencies getting cancelled and some frequencies getting abnormally boosted. Also, with the speakers only 1 foot or so from the wall behind them, you are getting some extra bass and mid-bass reinforcement as the lower frequencies escape from the port on the back of the speaker and reflect off of the wall that is quite close behind them.

If it were my own room and my own setup and my own money to spend, I would start with treating the room with acoustic panels and some bass traps before I would upgrade my speakers at this point. Now, that is not to say that a speaker upgrade may not also improve the sound that you are hearing. But, in my own experience, I would get the highest value for my money by treating the room's acoustic issues, so that is where I would start.

I can't guarantee that acoustic treatments will get you completely to where you want to be sound quality wise. But I can say with a great deal of certainty that the sound will improve. Also, if you do decide that you still want to upgrade your speakers - even after the acoustic treatments are in place - they will now be in a much better acoustic environment and that will help them to sound even better.

I'm personally a big fan of Auralex Acoustics and their products. You can certainly go the DIY route and possibly save some good money that way. Myself, I'm not very skilled when it comes to making panels that look good, so I've opted for the pre-made stuff The Auralex panels are also physically thinner, which I prefer in a smaller room since it doesn't drastically decrease the size of the room itself. 4" - 6" thick panels certainly can work very very well, but I find them a bit of an eyesore - especially since I'm no good at making them look good myself

Anyways, I like to recommend the Auralex Alpha-DST kit for rooms that are the size of yours.

I recommend that you place the bass traps - one in each corner. Then use the acoustic panels in the following way:

- treat the front of the room mostly. Put a couple panels directly behind your front speakers and then some panels on the front wall inbetween the front speakers. Sound coming from the front of your room should be very clear and pin-point precise, so you don't want reflections coming off of your front wall and muddying the sound!

- treat the reflection points on the side walls. Imagine a billiard ball being shot from the front speakers, off of the side wall and bouncing to your ears. Where ever the ball would have to hit on the side wall to make that shot - put acoustic panels there.

- put some panels directly behind your seating position. Sound from the front speakers should "wash over" you and then disappear. It shouldn't come bouncing back to your ears off of the back wall!

- if you have any panels left, you can also put them on the ceiling. Same idea as the reflection points on the side walls. Where ever the sound would bounce off of the ceiling at to your ears, you can put panels there.

Treating your room acoustically makes a bigger difference than most people expect, so I really think this would be well worth your while. There are certainly alternatives to the Auralex Alpha-DST Kit that I mentioned (the kit is also available in different colors), but to me, it's a nice $400 package that gives you pretty much everything you need for a room your size and it's physically not too big, so it's pretty easy to use.

Best of luck!

 

[lukejr]

FirstReflection, thanks for all the information about acoustical treatment. It does give me lots to think about. However, I feel that at the moment I am a bit relunctant to put panels on the walls. I don't really like to change the look of the room, and having panels on the walls can be distracting.

Anyways, I did a quick audition of the Energy RC-10 today at a local store. The room was far from an ideal listening room. Also, any of my opinions reflect this very unscientific audition because of course I didn't have both speakers side by side for comparison. My conclusion is that I felt that the RC-10 was not an overwhelming better speaker than the Axiom M3Ti. In fact, I call it a draw. The M3Ti has a very good midrange and I would say it is smoother and more pleasant sounding than the RC-10. The RC-10 has better treble and more bass output. However, I feel that the M3Ti has a more balanced sound throughout its range, while the RC-10 seems to have distinct separation of its treble from mid range, and in my opinion it didn't blend as nicely. It's difficult to say if this was a large part due to the room and placement, or just inherent in the speaker's characteristics. Like I said, my audition was not ideal.

To conclude, I don't think the RC-10 is as signifant an improvement (if any) over the Axiom M3Ti for me to justify adding it to my system. While there might areas where it excelled over the M3Ti, overall it doesn't have the immediate "wow" response I was hoping an upgrade of speaker would give me. This means that I'm probably having to spend at least $1000 on speakers to justify the improvement I desire.

 

[3db]

FirstReflection, thanks for all the information about acoustical treatment. It does give me lots to think about. However, I feel that at the moment I am a bit relunctant to put panels on the walls. I don't really like to change the look of the room, and having panels on the walls can be distracting.

Anyways, I did a quick audition of the Energy RC-10 today at a local store. The room was far from an ideal listening room. Also, any of my opinions reflect this very unscientific audition because of course I didn't have both speakers side by side for comparison. My conclusion is that I felt that the RC-10 was not an overwhelming better speaker than the Axiom M3Ti. In fact, I call it a draw. The M3Ti has a very good midrange and I would say it is smoother and more pleasant sounding than the RC-10. The RC-10 has better treble and more bass output. However, I feel that the M3Ti has a more balanced sound throughout its range, while the RC-10 seems to have distinct separation of its treble from mid range, and in my opinion it didn't blend as nicely. It's difficult to say if this was a large part due to the room and placement, or just inherent in the speaker's characteristics. Like I said, my audition was not ideal.

To conclude, I don't think the RC-10 is as signifant an improvement (if any) over the Axiom M3Ti for me to justify adding it to my system. While there might areas where it excelled over the M3Ti, overall it doesn't have the immediate "wow" response I was hoping an upgrade of speaker would give me. This means that I'm probably having to spend at least $1000 on speakers to justify the improvement I desire.

Next up on your audition list the PSB B25s. Give them a lsiten ansd let us know what you think.

 

[FirstReflection]

You're welcome, lukejr

I can't say I'm surprised by your opinions about the RC-10 vs. the M3Ti. The M3Ti really are very good speakers and it takes a considerable increase in price to really find speakers that are clearly superior IMO. That's largely what I meant when saying that I believe you get considerably higher value in spending your money on acoustic treatments at this point. I guess another way to say it is that dollar for dollar, I'd expect you to get much more improvement from acoustic treatments than from different speakers when the M3Ti are your starting point.

I completely understand what you're saying about the Auralex panels that I mentioned and how they might look on your wall. One solution though is simply different, more aesthetically appealing panels and bass traps. If you go the pre-made route, this typically means a higher price tag to go along with the nicer looks

If you go DIY, you can, of course, make the panels look anyway you want - provided you've got the skill, of course Once again though, most of the DIY panels I've ever seen are fairly thick, so that might be a possible downside.

Some of Auralex' other products look pretty darn nice though IMO. They've got their SonoFlat panels, their Elite Pro panels and they also have the high end SonoSuede panels. They've also newly introduced their SonicPrint panels, which literally allow you to have any image you want printed on the panels so that they can perfectly match your walls or literally act as pieces of art. Another cool Auralex product is AudioTile, which is a funky 3-D "wave" pattern where you can arrange the small wavy tiles into all sorts of various, cool looking patterns.

Naturally, the fancier you get in the lineup, the higher the prices go. But the SonoFlat panels are pretty reasonable and they provide a nicer, more upscale look than the wedge-type looking DST panels.

Anyways, just something to consider. When you start to imagine having to spend more than $1000 on the speakers, it really starts to make you consider the cost-to-benefit ratio. I would definitely say though that if you can't make acoustic treatments happen right now, be sure to audition your new speakers in your own room before you get into a situation where you cannot return them! There's definitely a chance that you might find some speakers that really blow you away in the store, but once you get them home, you might find that your room's acoustics change the home experience of their sound considerably. So it's just a very good idea to make sure that you can always return any speakers you may buy if you get them home and they don't make you happy