Upgrade, 2k budget

[ryanosaur]

Hey ryanosaur,

I’ve seen you showing and others demonstrating high praise for Ascend. Since you spent some time with the MA silver 300’s, how would you say they compare? Anything either is substantially better or worse at (objectively speaking, if there is any such thing in this hobby!).

Trigger time in about 6-8 weeks and it’s down to the monitors, the Paradigms and now just considering the possibility of stretching the budget a bit looking at those Sierras. But wouldn’t want to unless they are markedly better performers especially considering I loved what I heard from monitor

in case you all can’t tell, my mind has been obsessing

Sorry man... thought I'd been clear... no direct experience there. Dave and Ascend have an insanely good reputation, and his philosophy matches up very closely with the guys that did my speakers. I cancelled my audition plans down in San Clemente after I heard the Phil 3s in audition much closer to me. Nothing could touch that experience.
That said, I am a proud owner of a few BMRs, too, and Dave's Sierra Towers compare well against those. His Sierra 2 standmounts also are well regarded, especially if you step up to the newer XR version.
Dennis and Dave are both professionals and seem to hold each other in high regard, which is pretty telling in my book.
That said, I like flat and accurate performance. The BMRs and Phil 3s deliver that is spades. Dave's speakers test almost identical. A few personal preferences stated either way from people I've talked too, but never have I heard someone say Ascend wasn't solid.

 

[Mpsafranski]

Though now they aren’t taking any new orders bummer. That 3 way BMR bookshelf looks incredible and those measurements almost unbelievably flat. I do worry about another bookshelf with low(ish) sensitivity being able to fill my somewhat large and open room, and the Phil 3’s, even if I could order them, with that also gorgeous center, would really be stretching the budget beyond what I’m comfortable with with our first kid arriving in March. Seems obvious, though, that Dennis and Dave are able to keep their prices down given no marketing. Because the reviews and measurements seem like those BMRs should cost no less than 4K/pr

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Definitely listen to all available speakers when you get the chance. Only way you will know for sure that you've made the correct decision when you buy the speakers that sounded best to you when compared to all the other speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Though now they aren’t taking any new orders bummer. That 3 way BMR bookshelf looks incredible and those measurements almost unbelievably flat. I do worry about another bookshelf with low(ish) sensitivity being able to fill my somewhat large and open room, and the Phil 3’s, even if I could order them, with that also gorgeous center, would really be stretching the budget beyond what I’m comfortable with with our first kid arriving in March. Seems obvious, though, that Dennis and Dave are able to keep their prices down given no marketing. Because the reviews and measurements seem like those BMRs should cost no less than 4K/pr

Salk is selling the BMRs now, but at a sustainable cost for his business. I still think they are a good deal at his price! That said, the Sierra 2XR I saw on sale around 1500 iirc. I’ve heard Dave is working on an upgrade to the tower as well.
If you decide to go Salk, or anything like that... you should be considering that those are forever speakers. That was my attitude when I bought last year. My next upgrade will only be if I can build better on my own in 5-10 yrs time! That’s a lofty goal, yet a worthy pursuit.

 

[snakeeyes]

Anyone paying a lot of money (relative to their budget) for speakers should audition them first. I recall many of these custom builds are a 6 month wait as well.

 

[shadyJ]

Though now they aren’t taking any new orders bummer. That 3 way BMR bookshelf looks incredible and those measurements almost unbelievably flat. I do worry about another bookshelf with low(ish) sensitivity being able to fill my somewhat large and open room, and the Phil 3’s, even if I could order them, with that also gorgeous center, would really be stretching the budget beyond what I’m comfortable with with our first kid arriving in March. Seems obvious, though, that Dennis and Dave are able to keep their prices down given no marketing. Because the reviews and measurements seem like those BMRs should cost no less than 4K/pr

Salk BMR Philharmonitors.

More expensive than what Philharmonic was selling them at, but still a enormous bargain considering the performance. Philharmonic was essentially selling them at a loss, and their pricing wasn't all that rational (sorry Dennis!) It's crazy that the BMR Philharmonitors aren't overloading Salk with orders as well. An outstanding speaker!

 

[Mpsafranski]

Ah yes I see there that they’re now selling for quite a bit more than they were at the time of the audioholics review-and fair enough.
Would love to get a chance to audition those Sierra towers with and without the raal. Looking at the Phil 3s I don’t think I’d get spouse approval

 

[ryanosaur]

If you reach out to Jim, he may be able to set you up with a local customer of his for an audition. Perhaps the same with Ascend. Just depends on where you are. My Philharmonic audition was in a private home about a 2-hour drive from me... Dennis reached out to his customer, and linked us together.
I am a big fan of the Raal experience now. The only thing better is a beryllium tweeter, perhaps. They are well worth considering for the performance and sound quality. Done well, they throw a wide horizontal dispersion, a preference of Dennis.

 

[ryanosaur]

Salk BMR Philharmonitors.

More expensive than what Philharmonic was selling them at, but still a enormous bargain considering the performance. Philharmonic was essentially selling them at a loss, and their pricing wasn't all that rational (sorry Dennis!) It's crazy that the BMR Philharmonitors aren't overloading Salk with orders as well. An outstanding speaker!

BTW:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/phiharmonic-audio-bmr-speaker-kit/

Just went live in the last few days.

 

[shadyJ]

BTW:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/phiharmonic-audio-bmr-speaker-kit/

Just went live in the last few days.

The cabinet is not the simplest construction, and that is the problem there, not gathering the pieces. I think you would need to have some real woodworking skills to make a proper cabinet for the BMR Philharmonitors.

 

[ryanosaur]

The cabinet is not the simplest construction, and that is the problem there, not gathering the pieces. I think you would need to have some real woodworking skills to make a proper cabinet for the BMR Philharmonitors.

My understanding is there is a guy that will be doing baffles and perhaps flatpacks... and maybe even finished cabinets. Don't recall the timing on that, but think they were close to working out the last few details.
Dennis shared , on that other site, part of the "secret" behind the BMR enclosure, and that is the tricky part... a completely sealed and highly damped box, plus the special routing for flush mounting the driver.

 

[Mpsafranski]

So with the salks, I notice that anything in my budget (basically the song towers) are 2 way. Total newbie question but isn’t the advantage of a tower over a bookshelf the midrange driver for added clarity and output in the mids? Cringing a little, it sounds like a dumb question.

Also the matching center is a MTM which is a bit of a bummer. Those song 3s and their center look amazing but that would almost double the approximate 3k I was planning for the 3 speakers.

I do see that another option in my budget would be the new Aperion Versus III. The I and II versions look like they were home runs in reviews.

Also another shout out to all of you for the patience and friendliness.

 

[ryanosaur]

So with the salks, I notice that anything in my budget (basically the song towers) are 2 way. Total newbie question but isn’t the advantage of a tower over a bookshelf the midrange driver for added clarity and output in the mids? Cringing a little, it sounds like a dumb question.

Also the matching center is a MTM which is a bit of a bummer. Those song 3s and their center look amazing but that would almost double the approximate 3k I was planning for the 3 speakers.

I do see that another option in my budget would be the new Aperion Versus III. The I and II versions look like they were home runs in reviews.

Also another shout out to all of you for the patience and friendliness.

That's exactly what I was saying about these being Forever Speakers...

Its easy to get bogged down when looking at speakers and trying to balance the cost-to-quality ratio. It only gets worse if you don't know what something sounds like. We've seen people here talk about upgrading so many times, and half of them are looking at lateral to minor-incremental upgrades, largely because they might see a sale, or something looks cool...
A great value is something that you won't have to replace for 10 years because it IS that good.
I raised my budget a few different times because I understood that I could buy Emotiva but might not be happy in 2 yrs... then buy XXXX, and then buy YYYY a few more years down the road. Is three different rigs in 6 years time worth 1 rig over 10 years?

Get to know the sound you want, which only comes from listening to stuff. See if you can find a way to hear Salk and Ascend, too. (If you're on the East Coast, the Capital Audio fest is happening very soon, perhaps this weekend(?).) That's the only way to decide for yourself.
Afterall, Klipsch or KEF are right for some. Others swear by B&W. You may or may not like any of them, but that doesn't make those listeners wrong.

Cheers!

 

[Mpsafranski]

That makes perfect sense. Part of why I’m obsessing is I don’t want the what if’s or upgraditis. You had that aha moment with the Phils. I actually did have that moment with the MAs—but they were also the first “real” speakers I’d ever heard so of course I did. But I also did prefer them 100% over the SVS and I am not a fan of what I’ve heard from klipsch.

I do believe if I just go with the MA and maybe flex up to get the 500s, that will keep me happy for years. Because it is going to be leaps and bounds better than these Elacs.

 

[ryanosaur]

That makes perfect sense. Part of why I’m obsessing is I don’t want the what if’s or upgraditis. You had that aha moment with the Phils. I actually did have that moment with the MAs—but they were also the first “real” speakers I’d ever heard so of course I did. But I also did prefer them 100% over the SVS and I am not a fan of what I’ve heard from klipsch.

I do believe if I just go with the MA and maybe flex up to get the 500s, that will keep me happy for years. Because it is going to be leaps and bounds better than these Elacs.

I think that is a reasonable choice. I was looking at a 7-channel set up with the MA Silver 500s and the higher tier center as the Front 3. These are good speakers. Without questing for the option of listening to more esoteric gear, I could have been happy, myself, with that decision.

 

[Mpsafranski]

^^i did some critical listening with them for the first time in a while today. They image particularly impressively—it does sound like vocals come out of the center. But as far as picturing where instruments are on the stage they just don’t quite get there. But seriously I got the bookshelves and center last Black Friday for $300 you can’t beat that.

 

[Mpsafranski]

I think that is a reasonable choice. I was looking at a 7-channel set up with the MA Silver 500s and the higher tier center as the Front 3. These are good speakers. Without questing for the option of listening to more esoteric gear, I could have been happy, myself, with that decision.

Oh yeah man, that 3 way center is AMAZING. Watched some of Mad Max on it and compared to my setup the dialogue was so much clearer

 

[Mpsafranski]

Well everyone thank you again. After much back and forth with both Dave and Jim I’ve decided to go with the Sierra Towers with the ribbon upgrade. And because the horizon center won’t fit my setup, getting the new/upcoming 2 way center with the ribbon as well which Dave recommended over a custom Horizon.
It was not an easy decision. Many hours spent staring at the gorgeous cabinets on Salk’s website. Deciding factors were wanting a 3 way, wanting the ribbon upgrade (the Salk’s would have been 1k more approximately).
The towers are in back order until early next month. I’ll update here once I have them. Can’t wait!

 

[Mpsafranski]

Well, I got my Sierra towers w raal yesterday! First impressions: they are beautiful. I played around for an hour or so with placement (even though they needed to end up within a few inches of where I had my bookshelves, I wanted to see how the sound changed). Turns out they image remarkably well regardless of toe in.
My most remarkable observation after switching back and forth between the towers and the elac b6.2 was: holy crap, at 1/10th the cost, the bookshelves sound amazingly close in quality. There are noticeable differences—the mids are lovelier and more pronounced on the towers, and there is an openness that is hard to describe, like an airiness that was very noticeable listening to a bit of Norah Jones’s voice. The separation of instruments is more pronounced and makes the Elac sound the slightest bit muffled in comparison.
But man, apparently the Elacs punch way above their weight class, to the point I’m questioning if I’m doing something wrong with the towers or I’m crazy or my ears are damaged.
It’s surprising in that I recall being floored by the difference between my speakers and the Monitor Audio Silvers, and I’m now realizing that was likely much more to do with being in a treated room and speakers being fed through a McIntosh. Anyway the center won’t be here for a few weeks so I can play around and hold my final thoughts until I get the full picture. In the mean time here is where they are!

 

[ryanosaur]

Well, I got my Sierra towers w raal yesterday! First impressions: they are beautiful. I played around for an hour or so with placement (even though they needed to end up within a few inches of where I had my bookshelves, I wanted to see how the sound changed). Turns out they image remarkably well regardless of toe in.
My most remarkable observation after switching back and forth between the towers and the elac b6.2 was: holy crap, at 1/10th the cost, the bookshelves sound amazingly close in quality. There are noticeable differences—the mids are lovelier and more pronounced on the towers, and there is an openness that is hard to describe, like an airiness that was very noticeable listening to a bit of Norah Jones’s voice. The separation of instruments is more pronounced and makes the Elac sound the slightest bit muffled in comparison.
But man, apparently the Elacs punch way above their weight class, to the point I’m questioning if I’m doing something wrong with the towers or I’m crazy or my ears are damaged.
It’s surprising in that I recall being floored by the difference between my speakers and the Monitor Audio Silvers, and I’m now realizing that was likely much more to do with being in a treated room and speakers being fed through a McIntosh. Anyway the center won’t be here for a few weeks so I can play around and hold my final thoughts until I get the full picture. In the mean time here is where they are!

Raals are special. As much as I love them, I know they aren't the end-all of tweeters. But they are amazing in what they do!
Likewise, Dave's voicing and philosophy is very similar to that of Dennis as I understand. That accurate sound and flat FR is pretty stunning in my book. When you combine that approach with good drivers in a well planned design... you can't beat it!

Side note, because of the great horizontal dispersion, your best bet for your main LP is likely similar to mine... about 15º off axis, with minimal toe-in. If anything, I would look at your stand off distance from the front and side walls. Not telling you to move them, but if you are going to experiment... I found 18" from back of speaker to front wall to be a good distance, and with the dispersion of those Raals, at least 2' from the sides.
Every room is different! What worked for me might fail for you. So, grain of salt!

Have fun, and I look forward to hearing about your further experiences!