updating 'vintage' system

[pweller]

I have been out of the audio scene for a while, and have been reading through the forums here quite a bit, and am probably more confused now than when I started. This forum seems to be most pragmatic of the ones I visited, so I decided to post here.

My current setup is about a 20 year old system with an 85 watt Sony receiver and Vandersteen 1B's (I think they are B's anyway) and a standard DVD player. (I've got a cassette deck too, and an old turntable - sweet!)I've noticed that a few things (!) have changed in the past 20 years and maybe it is time to update the system.

My main room is about 11 X 20 with a 10' ceiling. This is pretty open, though, to my kitchen which is slightly larger. I listen mostly to rock, and probably just want a 2.0/2.1 system for music. I would like the capability to play DVDs through the speakers, but I don't care about surround sound.

My current receiver doesn't appear to have any provision for driving a subwoofer. (Back in the old days when I bought the system, well, we didn't need no stinkin' subwoofers.)

I'm willing to spend $1-2K on this. I think that should be enough to get something that sounds pretty good. I am very willing to buy used, but I'm not sure how practical that is for speakers that I can't really listen to first.

My first question is to plan on a subwoofer or not? Are these mostly useful for movies, or do they play a significant role in music?

I'd prefer to stick with a receiver, rather than amp/preamp stuff just to keep things simple. It's gotta have a remote. I saw some recommendations on the Harmon Kardon refurb units, is that a good place to start?

Would it possibly be worthwhile to get an HK receiver and SVS subwoofer (for example), and use the Vandersteens, or should I just start from scratch?

There seems to be a load of speakers to choose from. My Vandersteens are tower styles, and I would prefer to stick with that style, but bookshelfs on stands would be fine. I still have to go to the local audio store to listen to some speakers. I went to Circuit City and that was just a complete waste. You can't hear anything in that place because it is so noisy. My local store carries Paradigm, and a few other brands. Furthermore, I'm not really sure how to accurately evaluate the internet brands, and/or compare them to the Paradigms or anything else I hear locally.

Any advice is appreciated. I want to keep this a fairly simple setup.

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum! I'm glad that you decided to give us a try.

There are several good receivers out there to choose from. I tend to recommend surround sound receivers even for stereo listening because of their price point - they are so popular that they tend to not cost much more (or even cost less) than equivalent stereo receivers.

Regarding the need for a sub, that will depend on which speakers you use. My recollection is that a lot of music, including rock, doesn't go much below 40 Hz. So, if your main speakers can go that low, then you're set. For almost all bookshelf speakers, I'd recommend a sub. A good set of tower speakers wouldn't need one, though.

 

[davestradamus]

big speakers are sweet. maybe you still dont need no stinkin sub..... but seriously, you should look for a receiver with a phono preamp built in so you can still use that turntable.

ooh, and big speakers.

keep us posted
--david

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have been out of the audio scene for a while, and have been reading through the forums here quite a bit, and am probably more confused now than when I started. This forum seems to be most pragmatic of the ones I visited, so I decided to post here.

My current setup is about a 20 year old system with an 85 watt Sony receiver and Vandersteen 1B's (I think they are B's anyway) and a standard DVD player. (I've got a cassette deck too, and an old turntable - sweet!)I've noticed that a few things (!) have changed in the past 20 years and maybe it is time to update the system.

My main room is about 11 X 20 with a 10' ceiling. This is pretty open, though, to my kitchen which is slightly larger. I listen mostly to rock, and probably just want a 2.0/2.1 system for music. I would like the capability to play DVDs through the speakers, but I don't care about surround sound.

My current receiver doesn't appear to have any provision for driving a subwoofer. (Back in the old days when I bought the system, well, we didn't need no stinkin' subwoofers.)

I'm willing to spend $1-2K on this. I think that should be enough to get something that sounds pretty good. I am very willing to buy used, but I'm not sure how practical that is for speakers that I can't really listen to first.

My first question is to plan on a subwoofer or not? Are these mostly useful for movies, or do they play a significant role in music?

I'd prefer to stick with a receiver, rather than amp/preamp stuff just to keep things simple. It's gotta have a remote. I saw some recommendations on the Harmon Kardon refurb units, is that a good place to start?

Would it possibly be worthwhile to get an HK receiver and SVS subwoofer (for example), and use the Vandersteens, or should I just start from scratch?

There seems to be a load of speakers to choose from. My Vandersteens are tower styles, and I would prefer to stick with that style, but bookshelfs on stands would be fine. I still have to go to the local audio store to listen to some speakers. I went to Circuit City and that was just a complete waste. You can't hear anything in that place because it is so noisy. My local store carries Paradigm, and a few other brands. Furthermore, I'm not really sure how to accurately evaluate the internet brands, and/or compare them to the Paradigms or anything else I hear locally.

Any advice is appreciated. I want to keep this a fairly simple setup.

Welcome, especially since you consider this place so pragmatic

It seems you are satisfied with 2 channel audio, even with DVDs and interested in trying out a sub with it.

How do you like your speakers? If they are to your liking, why change it?
Do you think your receiver has a problem driving them? Distorting the music?
If not, why change when you are only interested in 2 ch?
There is a solution to your situation
Powered subs usually have speaker level inputs. You run your left and right speaker cable to the sub and from the sub, speaker cables to the left and right speakers; problem solved
The sub will have internal amps and crossover to use; you can experiment what frequency you want to cross into the sub, the rest goes to the front speakers.
SVS and Hsu are great subs for the $$$

 

[pweller]

mtrycrafts wrote:

How do you like your speakers? If they are to your liking, why change it?
Do you think your receiver has a problem driving them? Distorting the music?
If not, why change when you are only interested in 2 ch?
There is a solution to your situation
Powered subs usually have speaker level inputs. You run your left and right speaker cable to the sub and from the sub, speaker cables to the left and right speakers; problem solved


I appreciate your response, but not your attitude!! (just kidding). Surely things have improved in 20 years enough to justify a new system, haven't they?? (maybe not, what do I know).

Honestly, though, I think I'd like a bit more bass from my system. I guess I always remember the sound from my Marshall & Fender guitar amps running tubes and 2 - 12" speakers on each that would peel the plaster off the walls. That real 'meaty' area is missing altogether on my system. The clarity is present on my system, but not the beef - even if you run it pretty loud. My old school self looks at all of these 6 inch woofers (oxymoron right there) and thinks that a good bass amp has 15" speakers, so how can you get bass from a 6" speaker!?

I thought 'there must be more' was the audioholics mantra.

Seriously, though, thanks for your response. So maybe I should start with an SVS sub, and see where that gets me? Even if I decide to update the whole system, the sub would still work on a new receiver anyway, so there shouldn't be any loss.

 

[markw]

Well, your last post clarifies a few things.

First off, as far as two-channel music reproduction goes, things haven't really changed all that much. A new receiver is nice and there are still some killer two-channel units out there, but it won't make the impact that finding the proper speaker can do.

Virtually all of the development have been in the home theatre arena. Vandy's have a unique, but fairly subdued, sound and many people like it. You may or may not be one. If you like the basic sound now, then consider carefully before jettisoning what you currently have. If not, then maybe a new pair of speakers might scratch that itch.

As for subwoofers, if you want deeper bass, then that's the way to go but, understand up front that subs mainly operate only up to 80 hz or so. If they go much higher, it makes male voices sound tubby. And, many subwoofers are designed to integrate seamlessly into existing stereos systems, but some simply don't play well with them. Check their I/O before jumping into the water. It's also good to know if your receiver has preamp outputs and main amp inputs as well.

As for that gut-wrenching sound of a Marshall stack, well, a lot of that comes not from the low lows that a subwoofer covers but from the mid/upper bass that can be satisfied by an old-school speaker with a good sized woofer. That, and a bit of mid-range peak as well.

Remember also that your insturment speakers really weren't called upon to do voices. Vintage JBL L-100's or the more current VerwinVega! or DCM KX-12's are two that come to mind. I'm still loving my 35 year-old Marantz 2270 with a pair of like vintage JBL L-26's for rock music. Not many current components can match this.

IOW, a subwoofer will offer bass extention, not mid bass impact.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Seriously, though, thanks for your response. So maybe I should start with an SVS sub, and see where that gets me? Even if I decide to update the whole system, the sub would still work on a new receiver anyway, so there shouldn't be any loss.

That is exactly correct, a good SVS will serve a future upgrade if that is what you decide.
Amps haven't changed much. Maybe more powerful, or not
You don't seem to be after the 5.1 so a modern receiver will not give you more than what you already have except a sub out via interconnect wire but that is a lot of $$ just to use interconnects and you do have an alternative solution with powered subs.
So, in the end, not much to benefit for your desired 2/2.1 setup by going modern and lots of $$$.

 

[Rickster71]

Have you been using your VANDERSTEEN 1B's all this time, or were they in storage?
I'm just wondering what condition the driver surrounds are in? Along with the fact that electrolytic cross-over caps tend to deteriorate over the long haul. (even without use)
Here is a link to a five page review of the 1B http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/993vandersteen/index.html
It talks of quite a bit of cabinet resonance.
So, If you're itching to buy something new, or keeping what you have.
You've come to the right place.
We'll help spend your money.

 

[pweller]

Reading between the lines, then, it seems that I am happily sailing off to to the land of Oldfartdom with my system requirements. Oh well.

Markw, I looked into some of the JBL, Cerwin Vega and DCM options you suggested. The old JBLs seem to get some good prices on ebay, anyway ($500 or so seem to be common). The Cerwin Vegas and DCMs are cheap - I don't know if this represents quality differences or (more likely) brand recognition. Any thoughts on that? How do the new Cerwin Vegas compare to the old ones?

The new JBL speakers don't seem to get much respect, are they just a totally different company/product now?

Both Markw and mtrycrafts imply that not much has changed in 2 channel sound. However, I have noticed a trend towards smaller (6") woofers - sometimes using 2 or more of these in one tower. Do you know why this has changed? Was this done to make speakers smaller and easier to sell/market, or is there a technical/sound advantage to this?

Of course, if I buy anything new I will keep my old stuff until I decide the new stuff is considerably better. I won't sell anything first, especially since my old stuff ain't worth much.

Rickster71: I have been using the Vandersteens all along. For some time they got only very occasional use, but lately I play them all the time. I guess these do have the foam surrounds so maybe that is an issue. I talked to the people at Vandersteen a year or so ago maybe, and they indicated a damaged surround would be pretty easy to hear. I don't hear any obvious problems like that, though I haven't inspected them nor have I removed the socks.

Thanks for your help and patience with my questions.

 

[markw]

Purely conjecture on my part.

I've noticed that since HT has become the driving force, speakers have gone from the classic big woofer, big box system to a tall, skinny configuration with multiple smaller woofers. this is all well and good but, to my ears
(and some others I know), they lack the visceral "impact" that old fart rockers like us miss.

They depend a lot on subwoofers to make up the difference but, IMNSHO, subs come in at too low a frequency to fill that hole in the soul.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a bass head but different strokes for different folks and musical styles. My main system consists of speakers that are more musically "accurate" and for almost anything but rock they are superb, but for that good old rock and roll, nothing beats a "classic" speaker system with some mid-bass kick.

Those speakers I mentioned are not what I would consider "accurate" in the traditional sense of the word, but sometimes ya simply want a big, greasy cheeseburger instead of beef Wellington and for that, they do satisfy.

The classic JBL's are the standard-bearer of this type sound and the old CV's aren't too far behind. The DCM's are only about 10 or so years old and should still be relatively obtainable.

As for quality, I'd say they are all good. As for the price disparity between the JBL L-100 and the rest, well, consider it the '57 chevy of rock speakers. Not necessarially "better", but it's an icon, which adds to it's market value.

And, ya know what? you don't have to make a life-long commitment with speakers either. You CAN have your cake and eat it, too. That's where A/B speaker selectors on receivers come into play. I've got an eye out for a nice, reasonably priced pair of AR 5's for my system for the "non-rock" music I also love.

Oh, did I mention we're going to see NRPS this Friday at the Stone Pony in Asbury Park?

 

[Rickster71]

Oh, did I mention we're going to see NRPS this Friday at the Stone Pony in Asbury Park?

Yes, thanks for rubbing that in.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...Both Markw and mtrycrafts imply that not much has changed in 2 channel sound. However, I have noticed a trend towards smaller (6") woofers - sometimes using 2 or more of these in one tower. Do you know why this has changed? Was this done to make speakers smaller and easier to sell/market, or is there a technical/sound advantage to this?
.

Hope we didn't imply that speakers were lumped in 'not much has changed.'
I am sure markw also would agree that were were talking of other parts of the system, not speakers. Speakers and room are the weakest links in audio.
Not sure what the design reasons are for those 6" drivers if it is intended as the low frequency driver and not the mid band.

 

[pweller]

Have you been using your VANDERSTEEN 1B's all this time, or were they in storage?
I'm just wondering what condition the driver surrounds are in? Along with the fact that electrolytic cross-over caps tend to deteriorate over the long haul. (even without use)
So, If you're itching to buy something new, or keeping what you have.
You've come to the right place.
We'll help spend your money.

This was a good thought. I just checked out the driver surround on one of the speakers, and it is in perfect condition. Still soft, with no tears or imperfections.

I'll been looking around for some old skool rockers. I missed out on a few deals just recently, so hopefully something will come up.

I think there might be something going on with this trend toward smaller woofers/drivers. I suspect the manufacturers are doing this to make speakers that are more about style and marketability instead of sound quality. The premier guitar amps are still using 12" drivers, and this applies even for you jazz lovers as the Fender Twin Reverb amp has been a longtime favorite of jazz players. And, the guitar covers a pretty solid midrange of frequencies. I did notice a few bass amps are using 10", but it seems to range from 10"-15". I think this is worth noting because these are all 'original sources'. Is it really possible to reproduce the sound of 12" speakers from a 6" speaker?? I don't know, maybe it is, but it sounds fishy to me....

I also found a review on the soundstage.com site of the Cerwin Vega model that has 2 - 15" woofers per speaker. They actually gave it a 'best buy' kind of rating, and the response was pretty solid all the way down to 20hz. I suspect you're not going to find that kind of bass response from a speaker with 6" drivers.

I ain't no expert in this stuff, but the changes make me wonder what is going on, especially since the fundamental technology is no different (cones, coils, and magnets).

 

[jaxvon]

This was a good thought. I just checked out the driver surround on one of the speakers, and it is in perfect condition. Still soft, with no tears or imperfections.

I'll been looking around for some old skool rockers. I missed out on a few deals just recently, so hopefully something will come up.

I think there might be something going on with this trend toward smaller woofers/drivers. I suspect the manufacturers are doing this to make speakers that are more about style and marketability instead of sound quality. The premier guitar amps are still using 12" drivers, and this applies even for you jazz lovers as the Fender Twin Reverb amp has been a longtime favorite of jazz players. And, the guitar covers a pretty solid midrange of frequencies. I did notice a few bass amps are using 10", but it seems to range from 10"-15". I think this is worth noting because these are all 'original sources'. Is it really possible to reproduce the sound of 12" speakers from a 6" speaker?? I don't know, maybe it is, but it sounds fishy to me....

I also found a review on the soundstage.com site of the Cerwin Vega model that has 2 - 15" woofers per speaker. They actually gave it a 'best buy' kind of rating, and the response was pretty solid all the way down to 20hz. I suspect you're not going to find that kind of bass response from a speaker with 6" drivers.

I ain't no expert in this stuff, but the changes make me wonder what is going on, especially since the fundamental technology is no different (cones, coils, and magnets).

Don't fall into the trap of comparing guitar amplifiers with loudspeakers. A true high-fidelity loudspeaker is designed to reproduce the electrical signal going into it as precisely as possible in the form of mechanical vibration. Guitar amplifiers are built specifically to color the sound, that is they change the signal, quite significantly in some cases, in order to create a specific sound. This is why tube amps are often used (pleasant sounding distortion) and why amplifiers are often driven into heavy distortion in metal music. Distortion, in all of its varieties, is used as a tool to shape and change the sound picked up.

When it comes to loudspeakers, you probably don't want this. Some people prefer distortion, but almost everybody prefers high fidelity sound once they've heard it. In general, loudspeakers are designed to avoid these problems. Smaller drivers are used because they can better reproduce a certain range of the audible spectrum, not just because smaller speakers are marketable.

And no, a 6" driver will not have the same low frequency extension as a large cone. It's not really physically possible. But since most music doesn't go lower than 40Hz, and you can easily get 40Hz response out of 6" drivers and a proper box, the need for large drivers disappears until you start getting into the low bass region.

Also keep in mind that there have been a lot of advances in speaker design in the past 20 years. Lots of perceptual research has been done on the measurable parameters that define good sound. Computers have become ubiquitous, giving driver manufacturers the ability to precisely measure and design drivers to meet high standards of performance. Magnet technology has been changed greatly by the introduction of neodymium. Composite materials have been introduced to increase stiffness and decrease mass in diaphragms. And overall, a much better understanding of how to build a proper loudspeaker has been acquired.

But as for my recommendation, I'm not sure right now what I would choose. If you can find a pair of used B&W Matrix 801 speakers in good condition, that would be a hell of a speaker. I'll get back to you on some options...

http://www.stereophile.com/historical/506/index7.html

Check out the measurements on that speaker. They shame almost everything on the market still...

 

[pweller]

I understand that guitar amps are used to color the sound, which is why I don't use a tube amp on my home system. Back in the day we tried to play some music through a guitar amp and it sounded horrible.

My point is that after the sound is processed by the amp and effects, it comes out of a 12" speaker as an 'original source'. Your home system now has to attempt to reproduce this sound with a 6" speaker, be it distorted, clean with reverb, whatever, it doesn't really matter. The same goes for bass, which usually runs pretty clean.

You said "Smaller drivers are used because they can better reproduce a certain range of the audible spectrum, not just because smaller speakers are marketable." and "Also keep in mind that there have been a lot of advances in speaker design in the past 20 years." It appears as though the B&W speaker you recommended has fairly large drivers and was designed in 1986. I'm not sure if you agree with me or this or not.

I do see that a local dealer sells B&W, so maybe I will go down and have a listen.

 

[jaxvon]

I understand that guitar amps are used to color the sound, which is why I don't use a tube amp on my home system. Back in the day we tried to play some music through a guitar amp and it sounded horrible.

My point is that after the sound is processed by the amp and effects, it comes out of a 12" speaker as an 'original source'. Your home system now has to attempt to reproduce this sound with a 6" speaker, be it distorted, clean with reverb, whatever, it doesn't really matter. The same goes for bass, which usually runs pretty clean.

You said "Smaller drivers are used because they can better reproduce a certain range of the audible spectrum, not just because smaller speakers are marketable." and "Also keep in mind that there have been a lot of advances in speaker design in the past 20 years." It appears as though the B&W speaker you recommended has fairly large drivers and was designed in 1986. I'm not sure if you agree with me or this or not.

I do see that a local dealer sells B&W, so maybe I will go down and have a listen.

Well, I agree with you that it is possible to find speakers that are 20 years old and high-fidelity by today's standards (30 years and I don't think that's the case). However, it is not an issue that a 6" speaker has to reproduce the sound of a 12". The driver diameter is by no means the sole determining factor in performance. If you look at replacement guitar amp drivers on Parts Express, you'll see that most of them have stated "frequency ranges" (no +/-dB given) of 70-5000Hz. This kind of response is typical of many 6" drivers available from PE as well. So I assert that it is not an issue.

As for what I was getting at with loudspeaker developments, the analysis available today (as well as materials) has allowed speaker designers to use smaller cabinets and drivers without losing extension.